Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
Object interaction, spell components, unarmed attacks and hand usage
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 8069409" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>Even though 5E is far friendlier than any previous edition, it still inexplicably features a couple of unbelievably complicated rules for no good reason. While not crucial by any means, Level Up would still do well to finally fix the following issues.</p><p></p><p>Most players are only interested in the end result of "I'm using a two-handed weapon", "I'm using two weapons", "sword and shield", or "I have a hand free for showmanship and flair". Instead of repeating pretty much the same set of simulationist rules 5E inherited from 3E, how about... just <em>not doing that?</em></p><p></p><p>This ties into verbal, somatic and material components. Time to finally give this legacy junk a rest. Forcing players to keep track whether spells need a hand free (or worse, how many droppings of bat guano you have left) simply isn't the 5E way, or shouldn't have been. The far simpler and friendlier approach is to simply say "Paladins can cast paladin spells when wielding a sword and shield", full stop. "Wizards can cast wizard spells using a hand or by waving around a crystal, wand or staff". GMs can take it from there, trust me, they really can. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f913.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":geek:" title="Geek :geek:" data-smilie="30"data-shortname=":geek:" /></p><p></p><p>The few spells that make loud noise, or need extended movement, etc should be listed in their respective spell descriptions. Material components (that matter) already are listed there. Otherwise just assume a Bard can cast bardy spells, a Druid can cast druidy spells etc without no hassle. If you want, say, a Cleric to choose between sword-and-shield and one-hand-free "loadouts" simply give them different spell lists. Don't make players have to note niggly details about individual spells. (And for the love of Crom, don't first have general rules that make the lack of a hand free appear as a significant limitation, and then add a special rule that lets cleric cast by painting a symbol on their shield or simply hanging the symbol around their neck, making the player go "why did I have to read that hand use malarkey again?!" <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f612.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cautious:" title="Cautious :cautious:" data-smilie="13"data-shortname=":cautious:" />)</p><p></p><p>Just assume people move their hands whenever appropriate. Retaining "hand optimization" as a minigame is <em>not</em> appreciated. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Don't repeat the WotC clusterfrak with unarmed attacks not being weapons. If your design can't simply list "fist/foot" in the weapons table, with zero special exceptions, you're doing it wrong. Yes, it really is that simple. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool :cool:" data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /></p><p></p><p>Any character race/ancestry/heritage/whatever with natural weapons/armor should not have that instantly overshadowed by regular equipment.</p><p></p><p>Finally, leave object interaction explicitly in the hands of the GM: The only rule is "you can open exactly as many chests, pull as many ropes, sheath exactly as many weapons in your turn as the DM allows". Embrace the fact that D&D characters rely on their weapon loadout to function. Having to decide where to put your weapon just to open a door should be considered just as mundane as toilet breaks. In other words, not something the rules concern themselves with. Finally make a ruleset where a Greataxe Barbarian or Twin Dagger Rogue <strong>never</strong> has any reason to drop a weapon as a free action for later retrieval.</p><p></p><p>If an action simply can't be performed with weapon(s) in hand, list that specifically at each action. Or better yet, impose a penalty so high-level heroes can do it anyway. Only differentiate between "armed" and "unarmed". Swimming or climbing while armed gains the penalty, but noone cares <em>how</em> you're armed. (The way you already can swim in full plate mail with a small penalty should be a hint!) Then have two simple actions "stow" and "wield" to go from armed to unarmed and vice versa; without bothering to count the number and nature of items stowed or wielded. (The notion Zorro should be able to stow his weapon faster than either of the Barbarian or War Cleric is a thoroughly obsolete notion for a game of 5E's complexity level, with or without the Level Up add-on)</p><p></p><p>The simple truth is that no class or build ever is balanced with these minuscule variations in mind, so why not simply strike it from the game, and trust the heroes to do their jobs without us players having to micro manage their hand usage? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60a.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":giggle:" title="Giggle :giggle:" data-smilie="27"data-shortname=":giggle:" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 8069409, member: 12731"] Even though 5E is far friendlier than any previous edition, it still inexplicably features a couple of unbelievably complicated rules for no good reason. While not crucial by any means, Level Up would still do well to finally fix the following issues. Most players are only interested in the end result of "I'm using a two-handed weapon", "I'm using two weapons", "sword and shield", or "I have a hand free for showmanship and flair". Instead of repeating pretty much the same set of simulationist rules 5E inherited from 3E, how about... just [I]not doing that?[/I] This ties into verbal, somatic and material components. Time to finally give this legacy junk a rest. Forcing players to keep track whether spells need a hand free (or worse, how many droppings of bat guano you have left) simply isn't the 5E way, or shouldn't have been. The far simpler and friendlier approach is to simply say "Paladins can cast paladin spells when wielding a sword and shield", full stop. "Wizards can cast wizard spells using a hand or by waving around a crystal, wand or staff". GMs can take it from there, trust me, they really can. :geek: The few spells that make loud noise, or need extended movement, etc should be listed in their respective spell descriptions. Material components (that matter) already are listed there. Otherwise just assume a Bard can cast bardy spells, a Druid can cast druidy spells etc without no hassle. If you want, say, a Cleric to choose between sword-and-shield and one-hand-free "loadouts" simply give them different spell lists. Don't make players have to note niggly details about individual spells. (And for the love of Crom, don't first have general rules that make the lack of a hand free appear as a significant limitation, and then add a special rule that lets cleric cast by painting a symbol on their shield or simply hanging the symbol around their neck, making the player go "why did I have to read that hand use malarkey again?!" :cautious:) Just assume people move their hands whenever appropriate. Retaining "hand optimization" as a minigame is [I]not[/I] appreciated. :) Don't repeat the WotC clusterfrak with unarmed attacks not being weapons. If your design can't simply list "fist/foot" in the weapons table, with zero special exceptions, you're doing it wrong. Yes, it really is that simple. :cool: Any character race/ancestry/heritage/whatever with natural weapons/armor should not have that instantly overshadowed by regular equipment. Finally, leave object interaction explicitly in the hands of the GM: The only rule is "you can open exactly as many chests, pull as many ropes, sheath exactly as many weapons in your turn as the DM allows". Embrace the fact that D&D characters rely on their weapon loadout to function. Having to decide where to put your weapon just to open a door should be considered just as mundane as toilet breaks. In other words, not something the rules concern themselves with. Finally make a ruleset where a Greataxe Barbarian or Twin Dagger Rogue [B]never[/B] has any reason to drop a weapon as a free action for later retrieval. If an action simply can't be performed with weapon(s) in hand, list that specifically at each action. Or better yet, impose a penalty so high-level heroes can do it anyway. Only differentiate between "armed" and "unarmed". Swimming or climbing while armed gains the penalty, but noone cares [I]how[/I] you're armed. (The way you already can swim in full plate mail with a small penalty should be a hint!) Then have two simple actions "stow" and "wield" to go from armed to unarmed and vice versa; without bothering to count the number and nature of items stowed or wielded. (The notion Zorro should be able to stow his weapon faster than either of the Barbarian or War Cleric is a thoroughly obsolete notion for a game of 5E's complexity level, with or without the Level Up add-on) The simple truth is that no class or build ever is balanced with these minuscule variations in mind, so why not simply strike it from the game, and trust the heroes to do their jobs without us players having to micro manage their hand usage? :giggle: [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
Object interaction, spell components, unarmed attacks and hand usage
Top