Level Up (A5E) Object interaction, spell components, unarmed attacks and hand usage

CapnZapp

Legend
Even though 5E is far friendlier than any previous edition, it still inexplicably features a couple of unbelievably complicated rules for no good reason. While not crucial by any means, Level Up would still do well to finally fix the following issues.

Most players are only interested in the end result of "I'm using a two-handed weapon", "I'm using two weapons", "sword and shield", or "I have a hand free for showmanship and flair". Instead of repeating pretty much the same set of simulationist rules 5E inherited from 3E, how about... just not doing that?

This ties into verbal, somatic and material components. Time to finally give this legacy junk a rest. Forcing players to keep track whether spells need a hand free (or worse, how many droppings of bat guano you have left) simply isn't the 5E way, or shouldn't have been. The far simpler and friendlier approach is to simply say "Paladins can cast paladin spells when wielding a sword and shield", full stop. "Wizards can cast wizard spells using a hand or by waving around a crystal, wand or staff". GMs can take it from there, trust me, they really can. :geek:

The few spells that make loud noise, or need extended movement, etc should be listed in their respective spell descriptions. Material components (that matter) already are listed there. Otherwise just assume a Bard can cast bardy spells, a Druid can cast druidy spells etc without no hassle. If you want, say, a Cleric to choose between sword-and-shield and one-hand-free "loadouts" simply give them different spell lists. Don't make players have to note niggly details about individual spells. (And for the love of Crom, don't first have general rules that make the lack of a hand free appear as a significant limitation, and then add a special rule that lets cleric cast by painting a symbol on their shield or simply hanging the symbol around their neck, making the player go "why did I have to read that hand use malarkey again?!" :cautious:)

Just assume people move their hands whenever appropriate. Retaining "hand optimization" as a minigame is not appreciated. :)

Don't repeat the WotC clusterfrak with unarmed attacks not being weapons. If your design can't simply list "fist/foot" in the weapons table, with zero special exceptions, you're doing it wrong. Yes, it really is that simple. :cool:

Any character race/ancestry/heritage/whatever with natural weapons/armor should not have that instantly overshadowed by regular equipment.

Finally, leave object interaction explicitly in the hands of the GM: The only rule is "you can open exactly as many chests, pull as many ropes, sheath exactly as many weapons in your turn as the DM allows". Embrace the fact that D&D characters rely on their weapon loadout to function. Having to decide where to put your weapon just to open a door should be considered just as mundane as toilet breaks. In other words, not something the rules concern themselves with. Finally make a ruleset where a Greataxe Barbarian or Twin Dagger Rogue never has any reason to drop a weapon as a free action for later retrieval.

If an action simply can't be performed with weapon(s) in hand, list that specifically at each action. Or better yet, impose a penalty so high-level heroes can do it anyway. Only differentiate between "armed" and "unarmed". Swimming or climbing while armed gains the penalty, but noone cares how you're armed. (The way you already can swim in full plate mail with a small penalty should be a hint!) Then have two simple actions "stow" and "wield" to go from armed to unarmed and vice versa; without bothering to count the number and nature of items stowed or wielded. (The notion Zorro should be able to stow his weapon faster than either of the Barbarian or War Cleric is a thoroughly obsolete notion for a game of 5E's complexity level, with or without the Level Up add-on)

The simple truth is that no class or build ever is balanced with these minuscule variations in mind, so why not simply strike it from the game, and trust the heroes to do their jobs without us players having to micro manage their hand usage? :giggle:
 
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Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
Even though 5E is far friendlier than any previous edition, it still inexplicably features a couple of unbelievably complicated rules for no good reason. While not crucial by any means, Level Up would still do well to finally fix the following issues.

Most players are only interested in the end result of "I'm using a two-handed weapon", "I'm using two weapons", "sword and shield", or "I have a hand free for showmanship and flair". Instead of repeating pretty much the same set of simulationist rules 5E inherited from 3E, how about... just not doing that?

This ties into verbal, somatic and material components. Time to finally give this legacy junk a rest. Forcing players to keep track whether spells need a hand free (or worse, how many droppings of bat guano you have left) simply isn't the 5E way, or shouldn't have been. The far simpler and friendlier approach is to simply say "Paladins can cast paladin spells when wielding a sword and shield", full stop. "Wizards can cast wizard spells using a hand or by waving around a crystal, wand or staff". GMs can take it from there, trust me, they really can. :geek:

The few spells that make loud noise, or need extended movement, etc should be listed in their respective spell descriptions. Material components (that matter) already are listed there. Otherwise just assume a Bard can cast bardy spells, a Druid can cast druidy spells etc without no hassle. If you want, say, a Cleric to choose between sword-and-shield and one-hand-free "loadouts" simply give them different spell lists. Don't make players have to note niggly details about individual spells. (And for the love of Crom, don't first have general rules that make the lack of a hand free appear as a significant limitation, and then add a special rule that lets cleric cast by painting a symbol on their shield or simply hanging the symbol around their neck, making the player go "why did I have to read that hand use malarkey again?!" :cautious:)

Just assume people move their hands whenever appropriate. Retaining "hand optimization" as a minigame is not appreciated. :)

Don't repeat the WotC clusterfrak with unarmed attacks not being weapons. If your design can't simply list "fist/foot" in the weapons table, with zero special exceptions, you're doing it wrong. Yes, it really is that simple. :cool:

Any character race/ancestry/heritage/whatever with natural weapons/armor should not have that instantly overshadowed by regular equipment.

Finally, leave object interaction explicitly in the hands of the GM: The only rule is "you can open exactly as many chests, pull as many ropes, sheath exactly as many weapons in your turn as the DM allows". Embrace the fact that D&D characters rely on their weapon loadout to function. Having to decide where to put your weapon just to open a door should be considered just as mundane as toilet breaks. In other words, not something the rules concern themselves with. Finally make a ruleset where a Greataxe Barbarian or Twin Dagger Rogue never has any reason to drop a weapon as a free action for later retrieval.

If an action simply can't be performed with weapon(s) in hand, list that specifically at each action. Or better yet, impose a penalty so high-level heroes can do it anyway. Only differentiate between "armed" and "unarmed". Swimming or climbing while armed gains the penalty, but noone cares how you're armed. (The way you already can swim in full plate mail with a small penalty should be a hint!) Then have two simple actions "stow" and "wield" to go from armed to unarmed and vice versa; without bothering to count the number and nature of items stowed or wielded. (The notion Zorro should be able to stow his weapon faster than either of the Barbarian or War Cleric is a thoroughly obsolete notion for a game of 5E's complexity level, with or without the Level Up add-on)

The simple truth is that no class or build ever is balanced with these minuscule variations in mind, so why not simply strike it from the game, and trust the heroes to do their jobs without us players having to micro manage their hand usage? :giggle:

I cant ''love'' this post enough.

I'd also do something with dual-wielding using bonus action and thrown weapon being limited by the number of draw/turn. If an archer can draw the same number of arrows as they have attacks in a round without problem, so should a knife/axe thrower.

I'd have the ''Ready Weapon'' action (probably can find a better name): When you roll initiative, you can use your reaction to draw the weapon, focus or shield you'll need for the upcoming fight. This has the fun interaction that if a character has the Surprised condition (and it should really be a condition, just as much as poisoned, diseased, confuses etc): they dont have reaction, and then might be left to defend themselves without their best equipment.

On the subject of simplifying unarmed combat: In my own game, I have a new weapon (heavy gauntlet) dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage, with the light property (blunt shortsword, if you want). This way anyone that desire to make a unarmed combatant without being a monk or sacrificing a fighting style can do so.

For the shields, I removed them from the armor list and added them as a martial, 1d4 B damage, light and warding (+2 AC, can only benefit from one) property. Want to dual-wield shields? You go for it!

Good post!
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
Any character race/ancestry/heritage/whatever with natural weapons/armor should not have that instantly overshadowed by regular equipment.

I skipped that part:

Yes! They are way over-valued as of now. Give them the same +1 AC as the warforged: if a damn robot with skin of steel and wood gains +1 AC, a scaly lizard should have the same reasoning. The only exeption would be those like the turtle with A) an AC calculation that override the notion of Armors, with benefits and sacrifices B) have a cool mechanic using said natural armor/weapon, like the Tortle Withdraw or the Lizardfolk healing bite.

Ex: A lizardfolk could have an unarmored AC of a flat 15, with increased swim/crawl speed when unarmored. And add a grapple as a bonus action when they attack with their bite, like the last point of the Brawler feat.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Highly agree with this post.

the only reason material components exist is to give the wizard a “weapon” to remove. I steal the component pouch And you can’t cast.

So just say that, and then list exceptions (like dimension door) as special exceptions...instead of making me look through spell after spell seeing what does and does Not have components (this literally just happened when the party rogue stole my NPCs spell component...I had to pause the game for 10 min to look up each spell and check on components, was a total PITA)
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Highly agree with this post.

the only reason material components exist is to give the wizard a “weapon” to remove. I steal the component pouch And you can’t cast.

So just say that, and then list exceptions (like dimension door) as special exceptions...instead of making me look through spell after spell seeing what does and does Not have components (this literally just happened when the party rogue stole my NPCs spell component...I had to pause the game for 10 min to look up each spell and check on components, was a total PITA)
In the past there were more exceptions to the S and M and V rule just about everythin in 5e seems to have& there were more ways to ignore one of those. 5e also seems more concerned with focus items. In past editions prior to 4e you didn't really have cantrips anyone bothered to rely on in combat & the wand/staff still did nothing over having a component pouch tied to your belt so you could still cast when you were not using your xbow/sling/staff poorly. 5e having cantrips as they are winds up making the wand feel more important but then the offensive cantrips are scaled to character level rather than something like wand+caster level or a nonscaling wand & it cuts casters off from what limited rocket sled 5e pretends is magic item progression.

A lot of the problem could be fixed just by jettisoning offensive cantrips as they are & introducing caster weapons that require or scale based on caster level as it was once defined. Hald & third casters could suddenly be balanced with powerful class features not needing to consider that they cast the same firebolt/toll the dead/etc as a cleric/wizard/sorcerer every round & the wizard/sorcerer/castertype cleric wouldn't be so exempt from the loot treadmill or the ability to disarm them of their +5holy avenger equivalent. Adding that kind of thing is impossible in 5e without screwing class balance & needing a ton of new class rewrites but it could be baked into an a5e from the start to free up all kinds of design space for those partial casters. Those caster "weapons" don't need to be on the same level as things like ye old wand of $spell & just need "This wand/staff has the proper runes & crystals allowing you to cast $cantrip" or "This tome includes the details needed to reliably cast the following effect as an action". As an added bonus it gives rooom to differentiate caster focuses into something like simple 1h/2h. Orb/crystal/holy symbol are for up close & cone effects, wand/rod are for standard ranged damage dealing stuff... Staffs are for the big guns that deal damage and make you cry with some kinda debuff like ray of frost & frostbite in addition to cantrips that just make you cry cause their main effect is a spammable minor buff/debuff
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
RED FLAG WARNING! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!

@CapnZapp - what you're proposing above makes casting even easier than it already is, meaning casters in general become more powerful and versatile than they already are.

Are you sure you want this? Are you really sure? Ask yourself: do casters really need any more help?

One of the greatest and best brakes on casters has always been that their spells are (or should be!) hard and-or fussy to cast and therefore easy to interrupt. Those brakes have somewhat come off in recent editions. Here you'd remove them entirely, it seems.

Why?
 


nevin

Hero
Even though 5E is far friendlier than any previous edition, it still inexplicably features a couple of unbelievably complicated rules for no good reason. While not crucial by any means, Level Up would still do well to finally fix the following issues.

Most players are only interested in the end result of "I'm using a two-handed weapon", "I'm using two weapons", "sword and shield", or "I have a hand free for showmanship and flair". Instead of repeating pretty much the same set of simulationist rules 5E inherited from 3E, how about... just not doing that?

This ties into verbal, somatic and material components. Time to finally give this legacy junk a rest. Forcing players to keep track whether spells need a hand free (or worse, how many droppings of bat guano you have left) simply isn't the 5E way, or shouldn't have been. The far simpler and friendlier approach is to simply say "Paladins can cast paladin spells when wielding a sword and shield", full stop. "Wizards can cast wizard spells using a hand or by waving around a crystal, wand or staff". GMs can take it from there, trust me, they really can. :geek:

The few spells that make loud noise, or need extended movement, etc should be listed in their respective spell descriptions. Material components (that matter) already are listed there. Otherwise just assume a Bard can cast bardy spells, a Druid can cast druidy spells etc without no hassle. If you want, say, a Cleric to choose between sword-and-shield and one-hand-free "loadouts" simply give them different spell lists. Don't make players have to note niggly details about individual spells. (And for the love of Crom, don't first have general rules that make the lack of a hand free appear as a significant limitation, and then add a special rule that lets cleric cast by painting a symbol on their shield or simply hanging the symbol around their neck, making the player go "why did I have to read that hand use malarkey again?!" :cautious:)

Just assume people move their hands whenever appropriate. Retaining "hand optimization" as a minigame is not appreciated. :)

Don't repeat the WotC clusterfrak with unarmed attacks not being weapons. If your design can't simply list "fist/foot" in the weapons table, with zero special exceptions, you're doing it wrong. Yes, it really is that simple. :cool:

Any character race/ancestry/heritage/whatever with natural weapons/armor should not have that instantly overshadowed by regular equipment.

Finally, leave object interaction explicitly in the hands of the GM: The only rule is "you can open exactly as many chests, pull as many ropes, sheath exactly as many weapons in your turn as the DM allows". Embrace the fact that D&D characters rely on their weapon loadout to function. Having to decide where to put your weapon just to open a door should be considered just as mundane as toilet breaks. In other words, not something the rules concern themselves with. Finally make a ruleset where a Greataxe Barbarian or Twin Dagger Rogue never has any reason to drop a weapon as a free action for later retrieval.

If an action simply can't be performed with weapon(s) in hand, list that specifically at each action. Or better yet, impose a penalty so high-level heroes can do it anyway. Only differentiate between "armed" and "unarmed". Swimming or climbing while armed gains the penalty, but noone cares how you're armed. (The way you already can swim in full plate mail with a small penalty should be a hint!) Then have two simple actions "stow" and "wield" to go from armed to unarmed and vice versa; without bothering to count the number and nature of items stowed or wielded. (The notion Zorro should be able to stow his weapon faster than either of the Barbarian or War Cleric is a thoroughly obsolete notion for a game of 5E's complexity level, with or without the Level Up add-on)

The simple truth is that no class or build ever is balanced with these minuscule variations in mind, so why not simply strike it from the game, and trust the heroes to do their jobs without us players having to micro manage their hand usage? :giggle:
I live this post. This can apply to almost any mechanic in any roleplaying game. Don't let the details overwhelm the story and the action. And KISS keep it simple stupid. If it's simple for them it's simple for DM and
When running groups of bad guys
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
RED FLAG WARNING! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!

@CapnZapp - what you're proposing above makes casting even easier than it already is, meaning casters in general become more powerful and versatile than they already are.

Are you sure you want this? Are you really sure? Ask yourself: do casters really need any more help?

One of the greatest and best brakes on casters has always been that their spells are (or should be!) hard and-or fussy to cast and therefore easy to interrupt. Those brakes have somewhat come off in recent editions. Here you'd remove them entirely, it seems.

Why?
I think he raises some good points. Players will do what their class & build allows them to do well. The free hand for casting unless 2hstaff or holy symbol on shield or whatever creates its own set of problems even if you only focus on spells. Take booming blade &gfb, both require you to use an action to cast it and make a melee weapon attack as part of it and as a result dont actually play nice in any clear go ahead or no dont manner with various abilities that should be a great pairing.... there are a bunch I've seen players run into but the God awdlful charger feat's attack comes to mind most from bed at 8am.

It also results in all sorts of weird and screwy feat taxed gish builds thst often take pains to build s class around some kind of conceptual gish as it is now rather than a much more elegant solution like having 1 & 2 handed "weapons" for casters with some of those being actual weapons that allow specific forms of spellcasting for the gish types while casters are using more flexible focus items that allow a much larger subset of a caster's (or even all) but make some spells different or even allow a specific cantrip/orison/generic "I 'attack' it by casting x" spell like attack. It allows melee weider pure martials to be designed in a way that makes sense for them without worrying about how they will work in the hands of a fish casting $spell, puts casters on the loot treadmill for weapons, and in general opens up a lot of design space. If a particular focus needs a free hand then say it(or even better make it 2h), if it doesn't then maybe thats why it changed to a symbol on your shield or the new orb are limited to touch spells since the design space for touch spells is much more narrow if you aren't using a 2h staff thst changes those spells like so
 
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