"Oddities" in fantasy settings - the case against "consistency"

According to the DMG, a NPC Half-Orc attacks on the monster table, by HD, and not on the class attack table.
If you mean "there's lots of weird, inconsistent rules which make it hard to state anything categorically about AD&D" then I'd agree, but I don't think it invalidates the wider point. YMMV.
Plausibility and consistency seem to me like features of the fiction, first and foremost.
And I don't disagree with this either. I'm pointing out that some people like a predictable, shared mechanical model for their PCs and NPCs. And that such a model is frequently - albeit inconsistently - employed in AD&D.

Honestly, I'm having trouble understanding why stating the case for NPCs often using the same mechanisms as PCs in AD&D is receiving such pushback. It seems fairly self-evident to me.
 

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And I don't disagree with this either. I'm pointing out that some people like a predictable, shared mechanical model for their PCs and NPCs. And that such a model is frequently - albeit inconsistently - employed in AD&D.

Honestly, I'm having trouble understanding why stating the case for NPCs often using the same mechanisms as PCs in AD&D is receiving such pushback. It seems fairly self-evident to me.

I think the issue people are pointing to is the inconsistency. The idea of complete parity was something I only really observed with WOTC. It happened in AD&D, but it just wasn't the same degree of expectation in my experience (I think everyone felt the class options, the race options, those were just things that presented a sliver of the full range of possibilities, and it was out of a desire for simplicity, balance, gamabiltiy, etc). I do think however that AD&D had both. It was before my time as a gamer (I came into RPG in 1986) but as a fan of the Ravenloft line, my understanding was giving a vampire class levels was something of a twist and an innovation; at the very least, I got the feeling this isn't what most people expected prior to Ravenloft. And there is definitely something to be said for starting out a creature as if it were a PC. But I think the game really bogs down, and it starts to strain issues like setting consistency when there is too full a commitment to this (like you had in 3rd edition), or when this is seen as somehow representing the physics of the setting
 

If you mean "there's lots of weird, inconsistent rules which make it hard to state anything categorically about AD&D" then I'd agree, but I don't think it invalidates the wider point. YMMV.

And I don't disagree with this either. I'm pointing out that some people like a predictable, shared mechanical model for their PCs and NPCs. And that such a model is frequently - albeit inconsistently - employed in AD&D.

Honestly, I'm having trouble understanding why stating the case for NPCs often using the same mechanisms as PCs in AD&D is receiving such pushback. It seems fairly self-evident to me.

What I would like to have happen in conversations about these kinds of things (PC : NPC build symmetry or not) is brutal clarity on why one might want this and why one might not want this. Here is how I would assess:

* Challenge-prioritizing play doesn't require PC : NPC build symmetry. Some games that feature intense, and intensely compelling/functional, challenge-based decision-spaces are composed of engines that feature PC : NPC build symmetry while others that are preoccupied with the same challenge-based priorities see their engines having quite different approaches to PC : NPC build.

So its not challenge-based priorities and engine functionality that is the pivot point here.

* Any storytelling imperatives a game might undertake (regardless of how distinct those agendas and individual game engines are from one another) are totally detached from PC : NPC build symmetry. Its an irrelevant decision-point at the design level because incentive structures, authority distribution, adancement/reward cycles, and the various widgets/levers/currency inherent to the resolution scheme are entirely insensitive to PC : NPC build symmetry.

* Here is what I think it comes down to (which is where I think a lot of these conversations land); a certain cognitive orientation to immersion. There is a cohort of players out there (I'm not interested in the scale of them) that have their immersion priorities very much anchored to processes' role in generating content. It might be something like "well the basic biological substrate and evolutionary pressures inherent to creature A is no different than that of creature B in our material world...so we really need to model this in our fantasy game engine or my brain is going to be constantly drawn to the artifice and conventions of game...ergo my immersion goes kersplat."

That is absolutely a thing. And I wish we would be clear about that, while simultaneously being clear that "this is not the only way to skin the immersion cat...its just your cognitive system's unique demands." Further still, I wish we would be clear about the tradeoffs of such design imperatives. There are virtually always tradeoffs here. PC : NPC build symmetry might cause prep time or table handling time for in-situ content generation or action resolution to increase. Focus on granular, symmetric process might dilute or detract from (perhaps because it makes it more difficult to generate or apply via straight application of the rules) situation-framing or consequences that focus on metaphor, motif, symbolism, genre conceit, emotions, or the internal workings of something/someone. Focus on process rather than outcome might make conflict opposition rostering/budgeting more difficult both in the GM's generation of the content via system (more overhead, more administrative work, more table time in the handling) and in the process and outcomes of the play precisely because it isn't outcome-based (where outcome-based design can first order aim for target difficulties and dynamics, process has those target difficulties and dynamics as second order...because the first order is hew to process). Finally, a few of these trade-offs together (or all of them bundled) will inevitably lead to a game that is deeply pre-play prep intensive for a GM (with all of the implications of such prep upon play) vs one that can be mostly GMed with relatively sparse prep but rigorous structure/tools for quickly generating content in real time.

So someone with this particular cognitive orientation toward immersion and this particular brand of immersionist priorities will likely want the sort of process-based game engines that are the archetype for PC : NPC symmetry (note that there are some exceptions both ways...some outcome-based engines have significant, but not wholly, PC : NPC build symmetry; Torchbearer). However, that is kind of the start of the conversation rather than the end of it...because now we're talking about the fairly sizable tradeoffs between process-based game engines and outcome-based game engines.
 
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I mean it is just basic desire for some rough simulation and the rules to represent the fictional world in somewhat coherent manner. If certain set of rules are used to always used to represent PC elves it makes sense that NPC elves are represented with similar rules.

I generally prefer rather robust fictional element to rules connection. If fictional element X is always paired with rules element Y, then we won't to always make arbitrary decisions about what rules to use when the fictional element X comes up.

In my current D&D game, I basically assume that most powerful people basically have class levels. It helps me to gauge on the fly what their capabilities might be even if I had not made full datasheets for them. If I know that the eldri shaman is a sixth level shepherd druid, or that the leader of the Corpsecrafter's Guild is a 13th level necromancer then I already have rough ballpark for their powers. It is not exact, and small deviations are fine by me, but I find these sort of rough guideline helpful and they also set limits to me as a GM. I can't just suddenly decide that this friendly NPC can totally cast a helpful spell the PCs need, because I have already established that they're of a level that has no access to it.
 

In other words, it's a pain the ass to go through the entire character generation process when you need a group of 10 men at arms, but you want the result in the same framework as PCs. Thus, an abbreviated process is necessary that results in an aligned stat block. Really, folks, can we tone down the long winded dissertations? This isn't rocket science.
 
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I agree - although we're still left with the question of where this "break point" occurs in terms of divergence from genre expectations.
That's when you ask yourself, what's the purpose or flavor you're trying to achieve in your game? When you know that, then you can see the break point--will a weird PC actually go against that purpose or flavor?

Then, you have to see what the character backgrounds are--a race/class combo (or the equivalent, for the game in question) may definitely seem weird but the background might make it blend in perfectly.

It may indeed be that the weird PC or their background doesn't actually work with the game in question, in which case, sure, disallow the concept. But check first.
 

I mean it is just basic desire for some rough simulation and the rules to represent the fictional world in somewhat coherent manner. If certain set of rules are used to always used to represent PC elves it makes sense that NPC elves are represented with similar rules.

I generally prefer rather robust fictional element to rules connection. If fictional element X is always paired with rules element Y, then we won't to always make arbitrary decisions about what rules to use when the fictional element X comes up.

In my current D&D game, I basically assume that most powerful people basically have class levels. It helps me to gauge on the fly what their capabilities might be even if I had not made full datasheets for them. If I know that the eldri shaman is a sixth level shepherd druid, or that the leader of the Corpsecrafter's Guild is a 13th level necromancer then I already have rough ballpark for their powers. It is not exact, and small deviations are fine by me, but I find these sort of rough guideline helpful and they also set limits to me as a GM. I can't just suddenly decide that this friendly NPC can totally cast a helpful spell the PCs need, because I have already established that they're of a level that has no access to it.

This is why I framed my post above the way I did, CL.

Look at the empirical claims you're making above that you detach from "my (Crimson Longinus') particular cognitive orientation to sense of coherency or immersive state."

The first paragraph has at least one if not two. See the 4 bolded bits:

1) I understand that it makes sense to you to use PC elves and NPC elves be represented by similar rules.

2) I understand its your orientation to rules to have a CL-litmus test of simulation otherwise the rules to fiction relationship will generate a sense of baked-in incoherency.

3) I understand that if you don't have a particular brand of causal-coupling of fiction element y to rules element x then you will feel decisions around rules become increasingly arbitrary (for whatever value of increasingly).

4) I understand that you like the way your sim-based, GM extrapolations of setting : rules relationship make you feel comfortable about decisions around helpful NPCs (or unhelpful...or all dispositions in between).


But that was the thrust of my post above. Plenty of games and plenty of people don't hold any of your 1 through 4 as necessary for coherency or immersion or usability (or whatever). And design based around process rather than outcome does, in fact, have trade-offs. Just as outcome-based design has trade-offs such as "players who share CL's cognitive orientation to fiction : rules coupling and related causal logic/extrapolation likely won't dig this game!"
 

I mean it is just basic desire for some rough simulation and the rules to represent the fictional world in somewhat coherent manner. If certain set of rules are used to always used to represent PC elves it makes sense that NPC elves are represented with similar rules.

I think this is one reason why I have so much trouble fitting into the categories I see people discuss about RPG styles. I do want a believable consistent setting, but I don't want rules aiming to simulate reality or to reflect an underpinning of physics. I feel like the rules are tools that can help achieve that aim among other things. But once a system gets deeply engineered or commits fully to this level of parity, it starts to feel more artificial to me than an actual simulation of anything.

With character creation this is particularly an issue. I think most people are good with the idea that if an NPC swings a sword and a PC swings a sword, they ought to use the same mechanic for that. But the assortment of choices presented for elves at character creation isn't necessarily a reflection of the realities of the world. It is choices specific to players. I think the worlds start to look boring if you imagine everything in it flowing from the same set of principles underlying character creation. In his OP (or perhaps it was a later post) @pemerton pointed to the issue of this impinging on creativity(and I think he had more narrative concerns in mind) but this also applies to people concerned with creating a believable and consistent world. The inhabitants of the world really feel more like video game figures than people if the GM is bound to the same set of mechanics and choices as the players for making NPCs and monsters. And even when believability and setting consistency are important, the creativity that @pemerton pointed to is also important because we are talking about games with supernatural elements that do draw on movies, books, etc for inspiration. If I can't make a cursed NPC or have to strictly do so by the laws of character creation, spells and the monster manual, I don't know....that just doesn't breathe life into a setting for me

I generally prefer rather robust fictional element to rules connection. If fictional element X is always paired with rules element Y, then we won't to always make arbitrary decisions about what rules to use when the fictional element X comes up.

But then you just start playing the system itself and not really engaging the world IMO. Decisions about what rules to use shouldn't be arbitrary but the problem with having a rule for everything and rules as physics is in many individual cases they will feel a lot more arbitrary than if the system were more open
 

Not in AD&D, where only humans and Halflings can be 0-level.

Though maybe the MM is carrying over some legacy thing, from before the above rule was clarified?
I read that note as pertaining only to the Attack Matrix for Fighters etc., clarifying how NPCs of various races do or don't use the table, so standard MM elves, dwarves (both hill and mountain), and gnomes all attack as 1st-level fighters (THAC0 20) regardless of their actual HD and regardless of whether they are considered equivalent to 1st-level fighters in some other respect. I.e. they might still be considered as "unclassed" individuals. Whereas, unclassed humans and halflings attack using the "0" column.

I was thinking of this passage from Swords & Spells (1976), p 6:
NOTE: Scale figures representing human/humanoid (and highly intelligent) creatures of 1st level or above or with 1+1 hit dice are always considered as having elite guard status. For example, the following types of troops are classified as elite guard status:
Veterans (1st level fighters)​
Elves​
Hobgoblins​
Gnolls​

This ties in with the Loyalty Base Modifiers given on DMG, p 36. Under "Training Or Status Level" are the following:

trained regulars ... +10%​
elite, sub-officers, minor officials/expert hirelings ... +20%​
guards, officers, or major officials/henchmen ... +30%​
My thinking is the distinction between hirelings and henchmen is relevant. I.e. henchmen are classed individuals while hirelings are not. Thus, 1+1 HD MM demi-humans, like elves and mountain dwarves (but not hill dwarves), not only attack as 1st-level fighters on the attack matrix, but they also have a status/training classification that is the equivalent of that of a classed character of at least 1st level. Because MM hill dwarves lack that status due to their inferior HD is why I use the term "level 0" to refer to them, by which I mean "unclassed".
 

Great post, and I think it covers pretty much all of the bases.

As I stated (up front, umpteen posts ago), I'm not actually married to this notion of symmetry in any philosophical sense. My contention has just been that AD&D did, to a significant degree, demonstrate it.
There is a cohort of players out there (I'm not interested in the scale of them) that have their immersion priorities very much anchored to processes' role in generating content.
This comes closest to it for me, although I think it's actually rather that a consistent mechanical framework lends itself better to my unconscious processes, and acts as a springboard for the creativity which emerges from them. It's precisely because I recognize that it's bound up in my own - particular to me - creative processes that I wouldn't proselytize its virtues: do whatever works for you.
 

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