Of Yuan-ti and Paladins (long post)

[Bardsandsages]

Here is the scenario, it's a Forgotten Realms setting, so it helps to be familiar with the deities involved:


Party started at 1st level. Currently 16th (game has been going on almost a year). The party consists of the following:

LN Wizard/Mind Bender follower of the Mulhorand pantheon (PC)
CG Divine Champion of Ilmater (PC)
LN Paladin of Helm (PC)
LN kobold Paladin of Helm (NPC, cohort to the PC Paladin. Long story, just go with it)
CG Young adult Silver Dragon (NPC, cohort to the Divine Champion)
LN Psion/monk (NPC, cohort to the wizard)

<addendum, I hate parties where everyone takes the Leadership feat, but I digress...>

LN Grey Witch (NPC, wife of Paladin)
Drow ranger/wizard (NPC, cohort to Grey Witch)
Fey-ri rogue/sorcerer (NOC, cohort to Grey Witch)

Drow and Fey-ri are of "questionable" alignment, as they started as LE but are being brought over to the balance by the Witch.

OK, not you know the players. Scenario is that LN Wizard receives vision from Horus. Seems Yuan-ti followers of Set have captured a legendary dwarven weaponsmith and plan to force him to creature a weapon that could be enchanted to slay even gods. In proper god fashion, it's up to the mortal servants to stop the evil Set.

The party is attacked by a large Yuan-ti raiding party on their way to the Yuan-ti stronghold. After intensive fighting, during which the kobold and dragon got knocked out by yuan-ti sleep poison, the party manages to kill the leader and capture six of the yuan-ti. They are a week from the nearest town.

If they don't do something with them, chances are one or more will eventually escape (they can turn into small vipers, after all) and will alert the stronghold. During the discussion, the Grey Witch is watching the yuan-ti intently. She finally suggests that the kobold, dragon, and Divine Champion should go scout to insure no others are nearby. As soon as they leave, she walks up to the first of the Yuan-ti and says "Give me a reason not to kill you." The yuan-ti curses at her and hisses defiantly. She shrugs and looks at the wizard, gesturing for him to kill the yuan-ti. The wizard, who had been arguing to kill them all because they will just escape and alert the others anyway, swings his sledgehammer (ANOTHER long story, just go with it), and cracks his skull.

Grey Witch goes to the next one and says the same thing. He starts chanting a prayer to Set. Drow slices his throat.

The Paladin of Helm just watches. So far, he's rationalized this because the Yuan-ti refuse to cooperate and understands what will happen if one gets away.

Grey Witch goes to the third one and says the same question. He curses at her and swears that Set will have revenge. Fey-ri kills him.

Grey Witch goes to the fourth one, same thing. Before the Drow can kill him, the Wizard attempts to use his dominate ability on this one, but the Yuan-ti makes the Will save. Wizard shrugs and says "Hey, I tried." Drow kills fourth one.

Grey Witch goes to the fifth one and asks the question. This one replies, "There is no reason for you not to kill me. You have won the battle. I am defeated." She leaves that one alone and goes to the sixth one, who curses and lunges at her. He gets killed.

Grey Witch goes back to the fifth one and removes an anathame from her cloak. She then drives it into the fifth ones' chest. At this, the Paladin steps forward, but is stopped by the Drow and Fey-ri. The Witch then casts a Heal spell on the Yuan-ti just before he dies. She then says to the Yuan-ti, "You are dead to your past. You are now reborn, free of the curse of your original birth. Go, you are free." And she unties him.

Paladin is now flipped out, and demanding to know what the heck is going on. Then the Drow and Fey-ri reveal that they possess scars similar to the wound the Yuan-ti received. The Yuan-ti says he has nowhere to go, as he cannot go back to the stronghold so defeated. The Wizard invites him to join the party and help them. After some discussion (and the Wizard requesting a hundred different checks to see if the yuan-ti was under some sort of enchantment or something), the Yuan-ti finally agrees and says he will help the party get into the stronghold.

The others come back and the Grey Witch tells them the Yuan-ti tried to escape and had to be slain. The Paladin is now having a crisis of faith, because while he has not been stripped of his powers by his inaction, he doesn't feel right about the whole thing that transpired. He thinks his wife is the leader of some strange cult, and is sure she has done something to the Yuan-ti. Paladin goes off to pray, and that is where the session ended.

I haven't decided yet what Helm will say. The Grey Witch is on the up-and-up, and simply preformed a rebirthing ritual on the yuan-ti who seemed capable of redemption. The Yuan-ti is being honest, he had an epiphany during the process and now really does want to help the party.

So if YOU where Helm, where would you come down on this?

 

[Nifft]

In your world, are Yuan-Ti an Evil Race, or are they Just Misunderstood, or are they Victims Of A Corrupt Society?

If the former (Evil Race): Paladin should see if he can convert the snaky dude into another race via some taint-removing ritual.

If the middle (Just Misunderstood): Paladin should help with newfound faith.

If the latter (VOACS): Paladin should help with newfound faith.

-- N

 

[Imruphel]

The question is made tougher to answer because the paladin is LN rather than LG.

What code of conduct do you have for him to differentiate him from a LG paladin?

The problem is also made more difficult because you are using an NPC member of the party as the protagonist. What are the PCs supposed to do while the DM's character starts performing arguably evil acts?

 

[Bardsandsages]

The question is made tougher to answer because the paladin is LN rather than LG.

What code of conduct do you have for him to differentiate him from a LG paladin?

The problem is also made more difficult because you are using an NPC member of the party as the protagonist. What are the PCs supposed to do while the DM's character starts performing arguably evil acts?

All the PCs know they can do whatever they feel they need to do with any NPC. I don't run NPCs for the point of having a DM character. These guys have gamed with me enough to know I have several contingency plans in the event they potentially throw the main story off.

To help clarify:

From the Forgotten Realms campaign settting, Helm's Dogma:

"Never betray your trust. Be vigilant. Stand, wait, and watch carefully. Be fair and diligent in the conduct of your orders. Protect the weak, poor, injured and young, and do not sacrifice them for others or yourself. Anticipate attacks and be ready. Know your foes. Care for your weapons so they may perform their duties when called upon. Careful planning always defeats rushed actions in the end. Always obey orders, providing those orders follow the dictates of Helm. Demonstrate excellence and purity of loyalty in your role as a guardian and protector."

For those not familiar, Helm is the only god Ao didn't cast down to Faerun during the Time of Troubles. He guarded the entrance to heaven and wouldn't let the other gods, good and evil, back in. He doesn't generally get involved as much in the day to day stuff as the other gods.

As far as his code of conduct, think more like a Jedi than a typical paladin. They're suppose tp keep their emotions in check and make sure their actions ultimately fullfill the long term goal.

 

[Bardsandsages]

In your world, are Yuan-Ti an Evil Race, or are they Just Misunderstood, or are they Victims Of A Corrupt Society?

If the former (Evil Race): Paladin should see if he can convert the snaky dude into another race via some taint-removing ritual.

If the middle (Just Misunderstood): Paladin should help with newfound faith.

If the latter (VOACS): Paladin should help with newfound faith.

-- N

These particular Yuan-ti are wholely evil, and trying to create a weapon Set can use to kill good-aligned gods. The Yuan-ti who has been "reborn" no longer wants to be evil and sees the terrible consequences if Set is successful.

 

[Bayushi Seikuro]

Protect the weak, poor, injured and young, and do not sacrifice them for others or yourself. Anticipate attacks and be ready. Know your foes. Care for your weapons so they may perform their duties when called upon. Careful planning always defeats rushed actions in the end. Always obey orders, providing those orders follow the dictates of Helm. Demonstrate excellence and purity of loyalty in your role as a guardian and protector."


As far as his code of conduct, think more like a Jedi than a typical paladin. They're suppose tp keep their emotions in check and make sure their actions ultimately fullfill the long term goal.

Here's the problem I see. Evil or not, the yuan-ti is definitely in a position of weakness. His defeat made sure that he'd be unable to head back to the stronghold to report. "Know your foes" -- that would definitely mean he knew that the yuan-ti would be killed when he returned.

Do you really REALLY think, using the Jedi code, that this would have stood? Once you start using slippery logic on who is innocent or who's to be protected, you're no longer being emotionless.

I'd say you forced the paladin do have his code betrayed in his face; coupled by having NPCs restrain him. There are other ways into a stronghold that don't require the DM allowing this. Especially coupled by sending away anyone else who could have or would have supported the paladin's logic. Sounds like at bare minimum, you killed a chance for excellent roleplaying where the paladin could have been swayed.

 

[Bayushi Seikuro]

These particular Yuan-ti are wholely evil, and trying to create a weapon Set can use to kill good-aligned gods. The Yuan-ti who has been "reborn" no longer wants to be evil and sees the terrible consequences if Set is successful.

Again on another rant, just trying to point out options...

A race that's wholly evil? Doesn't sound like the FR drow at all - and let's not forget that the Realms' singularly most popular character is Drizzt. Who left the race on his own.

Even the yuan-ti, for purely pragmatic reasons, with out magical compulsions/mindbending, could have chosen to learn how to function in the outside world, especially if it's the difference between being killed or not.

 

[Bardsandsages]

Here's the problem I see. Evil or not, the yuan-ti is definitely in a position of weakness. His defeat made sure that he'd be unable to head back to the stronghold to report. "Know your foes" -- that would definitely mean he knew that the yuan-ti would be killed when he returned.

Do you really REALLY think, using the Jedi code, that this would have stood? Once you start using slippery logic on who is innocent or who's to be protected, you're no longer being emotionless.

I'd say you forced the paladin do have his code betrayed in his face; coupled by having NPCs restrain him. There are other ways into a stronghold that don't require the DM allowing this. Especially coupled by sending away anyone else who could have or would have supported the paladin's logic. Sounds like at bare minimum, you killed a chance for excellent roleplaying where the paladin could have been swayed.

Yuan-ti were bound, but can turn into small vipers as a free action. They could have easily escaped as soon as they had a chance. Escaping would not have disgraced the other yuan-ti. They would have had no reason not to report that a powerful party was coming to attack the stronghold. The one that was spared decided to join the party because he couldn't go back to the stronghold with his new epiphany.

The Gray Witch has a high intelligence. There was no reason she would not have sent away the good aligned characters.

 

[Bardsandsages]

Again on another rant, just trying to point out options...

A race that's wholly evil? Doesn't sound like the FR drow at all - and let's not forget that the Realms' singularly most popular character is Drizzt. Who left the race on his own.

Even the yuan-ti, for purely pragmatic reasons, with out magical compulsions/mindbending, could have chosen to learn how to function in the outside world, especially if it's the difference between being killed or not.

Drizzt is the exception that proves the rule, however. How many good aligned Drow are there? Even the drow that come to the surface to escape the priestess' of Lloth aren't good. And remember, the one Yuan-ti did show the potential to be swayed. It's why he was spared. The others were hardcore followers of Set, as was evident to their reactions to the question. They would have rather died than betray their god.

 

[Nifft]

These particular Yuan-ti are wholely evil

Well, that's not actually true, because you have a ...

Yuan-ti who has been "reborn" no longer wants to be evil

... and that's the whole conflict. You have an "evil" race with a non-evil member. (This is only part of why I hate the idea of evil races.)

Good luck.

-- N