Offensive use for Mage Armor?

Sagan Darkside said:
The description of mage armor goes out of its way to disagree with you, but I thank you for your thoughts.

3rd time: The character is not the spell.

What the spell does in fact say is that "incorporeal creatures can't bypass it the way they do normal armor". It does not say that things protected by it have new offensive capabilities that even normal armor doesn't provide.
 

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Obviously, mage armor does not cover the entire body. Why? Because incorporeal creatures can still touch you (just harder to do so). As it provides the same ac as chain shirt, id rule that it was a chain shirt made of force, and as such, you could bull rush an incorporeal creature, but could not attack it(as a chain shirt doesnt cover your hands.). Does anyone agree with this?
 

Taloras said:
Obviously, mage armor does not cover the entire body. Why? Because incorporeal creatures can still touch you (just harder to do so). As it provides the same ac as chain shirt, id rule that it was a chain shirt made of force, and as such, you could bull rush an incorporeal creature, but could not attack it(as a chain shirt doesnt cover your hands.). Does anyone agree with this?

Eh. I'd say no. It really doesn't make sense to me. I can't articulate it any better than that.

Now, one could make:

Deathtouch Gauntlets: This pair of greyish, almost translucent metallic gauntlets allow the wearer to affect incorporeal creatures with unarmed attacks, including grapples and bull rushes. Some variants take the form of bracelets, taking up the bracers slot. Weapons picked up by the wearer are not affected by this item. CL: 9th. Preq: Craft Wondrous Item, plane shift. Market Price: 4,000 gp.

Effectively, it's a +1 enhancement-equivalent, doubled for the extra bits. It might be cheaper than I'd think. It doesn't stack with weapons carried, but it's great for monks/brawlers.

One could also take a set of bracers of striking (MoF, pp. 155-156) and jack those up with Ghost Touch, though it counts as a double weapon, effectively. You can also pack Disruption, and just ruin those undeads' day ("Uh...Fort save? Crap!").

Brad
 

Taloras said:
Obviously, mage armor does not cover the entire body. Why? Because incorporeal creatures can still touch you (just harder to do so). As it provides the same ac as chain shirt, id rule that it was a chain shirt made of force, and as such, you could bull rush an incorporeal creature, but could not attack it(as a chain shirt doesnt cover your hands.). Does anyone agree with this?
I could go either way, since the idea makes some sense. But a chain shirt has a skill check penelity and a maxium dex. Mage Armor dosn't. Therefore mabye it only 'works' for defense, since it dosn't inhibit your ability to move at all, just others ability to attack you. The armor won't resist your motion at all, and if you start trying to shove a ghost around nothing happens.
 

I would rule that a person with mage armor could strike an incorporeal being.

Here is why. Mage armor creates a force effect. Incorporeal beings can be affected by force effects whether they originate from spells or some other source.

The thing is, I would not rule that it would be a simply unarmed attack. Mage armor does not in any way inhibit spellcasting. I take that to mean that mage armor is the perfect fitting armor. Essentially it reduces the spell failure chance to 0. Now looking at full plate which has the highest spell failure chance (IDHMBWM - I think it was 55%) as a guideline, and scalemale or a chain shirt which offers similar AC benefits to the spell, essentially the spell is offering you the equivalent of a supermithril version of those armors, if you will. Now also consider the rules for gauntlets - spellcasting is impossible while wearing gauntlets - its not that there is a spell failure chance, but it is flat out impossilbe.

From this above information, I take mage armor to be similar to a suit of armor in that it covers some of you, but not all of you. I would take it to mean that it does not cover your hands as that challenges my sense of consistency between the armor rules and the gauntlet rules. Also, gauntlets are offensive and armor is defensive and the original intent of the spell was as defense, that much is obvious.

However, as I said initially I would still allow strikes against incorporeal opponents from a mage armored individual. The catch is they would have to be strikes with the main portion of the body and not the limbs. Any of you who have ever seen drunken master, or better yet seen a football game, know that this is both possible, and could hurt quite a bit. I would keep the same damage as a normal unarmed strike for that particular would deal, however, I would change the mechanism of attacking. As there must be bodily contact I would probably rule that something similar to a bull rush or grapple had to occur where you would have to enter the opponents space provoking an AoO (and if you had improved grapple, or improved bullrush, I would allow you to bypass that AoO). After entering the opponents space, I would then have you make a regular attack and if successful, you would deal your appropriate damage (provoking another AoO if you did not have IUS). Then, following the model of improved shield bash, I would have you roll opposed strength checks to determine if you had to move back to the space you came from before you entered the opponents square or the opponent had to move back a square relative to the direction you entered his.

I would be most conducive to this sort of attack if someone wanted to charge the incorporeal entity to damage it or bull rush it, simply because it seems to make the most sense to me. Iterive, or multiple attacks really tend to stretch my imagination with this method of attacking (with the body) and so I would probably make this particular attack a standard action rather than an attack so it could only be done once and to encourage the appropriate method of attacking (charging or bullrushing).

So, I would allow it, but it would be difficult - most likely provoking 2 separate AoO (and you can be sure that if my players started doing this as a regular tactic they could be sure they would face a warrior ghost with combat reflexes). I tend to hate to tell my players absolutely NO, especially when something seems to make sense as this does (despite drifting from the designers original intent). I do this mainly because I like to encourage innovativeness and creative thinking in my players (often times because that is the only way to overcome obstacles I create).
 


I say no

I would have to come down on the "no" side of this argument as well. It clearly stretches the intent of the spell. If the designers intended that Mage Armor would allow unarmed attacks to strike incorporeal creatures I'm almost positive that would have been stated in the spell description.

I also have to say that I don't think there is any evidance that Mage Armor does indeed cover your whole body. It is only a +4 AC bonus after all, not a +8 like full plate. Also, while there are game rules for wearing gauntlets, they don't provide an AC bonus so It also seems to be a stretch that Mage Armor provides you with Mage Gauntlets as well. IMO anyway.
 

Dingleberry,

IDHMBWM and am going from memory. I thought that casting any spell (with a S component) was impossible while wearing gauntlets. I did not include the S component part because I thought that that would be understood. However, am I wrong in my overall idea?

Even if I am, I would still rule mage armor did not work in the sense of covering your hands and feet.
 

I don't think so. I believe it states that all (heavy?) armor comes with gauntlets and while casting spells in heavy armor has a high chance of spell failure (with S components) it's not impossible.


Edit: Proof from the SRD:

Gauntlet: These metal gloves protect the hands and let character's deal normal damage with unarmed strikes rather than subdual damage. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet.

Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.

IceBear
 
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Just something else to consider -- most "shell" type spells, such as Antilife Shell, have a stipulation that if the ward is forced against a creature whom the spell would normally keep at bay, then the ward collapses. (See the Antilife Shell spell description in the SRD.)

While Mage Armor is certainly not the same as an Antilife Shell (it's a Conjuration, not an Abjuration), I could see the Antilife Shell text as a possible basis for a DM house ruling that the Mage Armor could collapse if a character intentionally attempted to force it against a creature.
 

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