Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

pukunui · Feb 1, 2019

[MENTION=6822731]flametitan[/MENTION]: Fair enough, I suppose. It does feel like someone who has mastered the use of shields should be able to do it more efficiently (e.g. as a bonus action).

The wording of the feat — and thus the accompanying ruling from JC — does not seem to be conducive with this interpretation. I think I shall just ignore it.

No one in either of my groups has the Shield Master feat, but if anyone were to take it, I would allow them to use the bonus action shield bash before they make any attacks with their Attack action.

Mistwell · Feb 1, 2019

Stalker0 said:
The cloud of daggers ruling. The way I read that, it implies that I can position the cube in the corner of the square, effectively allowing it to cover 4 squares...which is a pretty tremendous power boost

Squares are just a convenient construct for some games, and not how spells and effects actually function. Spells and effects cover a range and area in feet or inches, and you can position that anywhere regardless of a fictional grid tool the DM is using to show where things are.

5ekyu · Feb 1, 2019

pukunui said:
I'm curious: What sort of abuse is the Shield Master ruling supposed to prevent? That is, what is the issue? What's wrong with being able to knock someone over with your shield before you attack them with your sword? From a tactical point of view, that makes much more sense than attacking them with your sword and then knocking them down with your shield afterwards, or even attacking them, then knocking them over, then attacking them again.

Besides, the NPC gladiator can do this: they've got a Shield Bash action, and they can use it as any (or all) of their three melee attacks. I've used this to devastating effect against the PCs - knocking them down and then attacking them twice with advantage. It seems only fair that PCs should be able to do it too.

They could also use power word kill instead (assuming the half-orc in question has fewer than 100 hp).

Re the gladiator
Yes the gladiator csn take any one of their three attacks and bash...
Similar to how any 11th levrl ftr can use any of the three attacks to shove/bash someone prone then attack with advantage on the other two.

So, that common conflation is off the mark. If you got multiple attacks the first can shove.

The question is with shield master CAN you use the bonus attack to shove before your other attacks.

Here tho is my suggestion for Shield Master Bashers who really really really need to shove first then attack at will.

Take Polearm Master and use Spear or Staff.

5th level fighter with spear and PAM can use Attack Action with two attacks - first one shove then if that works then second and bonus action attack (d4) are at advantage.

Instead of getting a bonus shove you get a bonus d4 attack.

Additionally you get AO whrn folks move into range.

But you do lose the shield vs saves effects (which often get slightly dished in those discussions.)

dwayne · Feb 2, 2019

Most the time i have seen people twisting the intent of a spell or something to gain or do something that would give them a edge or breaks a given spell and action. This is what people in the video game worlds call an exploit and as a GM going on 40 years or more from 1st to now of D&D i have seen much. I have a very firm grip on the way the rules are and how they are to be used and when i see some of the calls i tend to disregard if all they are doing is caving into power build gamer and others who just don't know what they are doing. One reason "dipping" is a no non in my games, i do not let muliclassing also do to power over lap and stacking abilities, which is a thing now "raging barbarian, sneak attack WTH". Anyway i will on my end help by building a path under the class to fit that persons wants "barbarian assassin, that was a fun path called it the night wolf, or what ever the totem was" and the player loved it. So just saying iall i see most the time people just giving them what they want and not really giving them what they need, use your imagination and have fun folks.

Hriston · Feb 2, 2019

Gladius Legis said:
Shouldn't be any question. You took the Attack action as long as you already made one attack with your action (since, you know, you're committed at that point).

Since shoving a creature without the feat requires you to use the Attack action, you're committed to the Attack action once you shove, whether you go on to make other attacks or not.

Paul Farquhar · Feb 2, 2019

DQDesign said:
friends, do what you prefer, but at my table a player who played so long to be able to cast disintegrate is able to turn to ash anything she brings to 0 hp, half-orc or not. especially when she is a high-level spellcaster and the target a low-level half-orc. the other way around will have no justification at all in fiction and would ruin the suspension of disbelief.

The point of the rule (and other similar rules) is to keep player characters alive. In 5e player characters have a degree of plot armour. There is no reason to suppose NPC half orcs even have that ability, any more than an average orc does. Player characters are exceptional.

Enevhar Aldarion · Feb 2, 2019

As was pointed out to me a while back when I asked Crawford about the timing issue, there is no declaration step or phase, or whatever you want to call it, in 5E. That is a legacy of previous editions. So you attack or you do not attack. There is no saying "I am going to attack" and then get to do a bonus action before the attack is resolved. If the rules say "take the attack action" then you have to make an attack in order to trigger the bonus action. As for Shield Master itself, this in one of those feats that really feels like it should not be available at low levels, but I know they designed 5E feats to not have any prerequisites.

Markh3rd · Feb 2, 2019

Since you can split up your attacks with movement, I don't think you must commit all attacks of your attack action before you get to use the bonus action shove. Just like you don't have to use all attacks before you can move. I would say that you have to take at least one attack first before attempting to shove. You could also attack, move, bonus shove, attack, etc depending on how you want to split it up.

DQDesign · Feb 2, 2019

Paul Farquhar said:
The point of the rule (and other similar rules) is to keep player characters alive. In 5e player characters have a degree of plot armour. There is no reason to suppose NPC half orcs even have that ability, any more than an average orc does. Player characters are exceptional.

DMG, page 282: you can build the NPC as you would a player character, as discussed in the PHB.

same page, 'NPC features' table, half orc entry: relentless endurance.

PCs aren't exceptional in ANY way.

But don't worry, I got the point: wotc is right also in silliness and I'm always wrong.

Yunru · Feb 2, 2019

DQDesign said:
DMG, page 282: you can build the NPC as you would a player character, as discussed in the PHB.

same page, 'NPC features' table, half orc entry: relentless endurance.

PCs aren't exceptional in ANY way.

But don't worry, I got the point: wotc is right also in silliness and I'm always wrong.

I'm confused. Disintergrate does a minimum of 50 damage, insta-killing anything with 25 HP or less.
It's average damage is 75, insta-killing anything with 37 or less HP.

What "low-level half-orcs" are you using it on?

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

pukunui

Legend

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)

5ekyu

Hero

dwayne

Adventurer

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth

Paul Farquhar

Legend

Enevhar Aldarion

Hero

Markh3rd

Explorer

DQDesign

Guest

Yunru

Banned

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