Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Asgorath · Feb 27, 2019

epithet said:
Dread Ambusher is not really comparable to Martial Arts or Shield Master, because the extra attack doesn't consume a bonus action. It is just like Extra Attack, but only on the first round of combat.

I think it is important to consider the role of Actions and Bonus Actions in 5e. Neither of them are discrete packets of activity that you queue up, though they might include activities like attacks or spells that are discrete packets of activity. Rather, an Action or Bonus action exist to limit the activity on your turn. When you take an Action, you can't take one of the other Actions. When something uses your Bonus Action, you cannot then do something else that uses your Bonus Action. They represent opportunity cost.

The only unit of time that matters for actions in combat is your turn. Your Action and Bonus Action (assuming you have one) both take place at the same time: on your turn. Individual activities, like actual movement, weapon attacks, spells, flourishes, interactions, etc. all take place in the order the player wants, but the distinction is that those things all have a narrative presence, a reality in the fiction of the game world. Your Action and Bonus Action do not--they are formal constructs of the game system with no objective reality in the narrative fiction of the game world. In other words, you may move 10 feet and make a melee attack, then disengage (as a cunning action) and move another 20 feet. Those are all activities that occur in a sequence, and the timing of them matters. Stepping back to the meta-game, however, you took the Attack Action and your Bonus Action on your turn.

Reactions are different. A Reaction happens in a single moment, triggered by an activity with objective reality in the game world's fiction, and involves the reactor doing an activity with similar objective reality.

But the language of Dread Ambusher is quite explicit that it's giving you an extra attack as part of your Attack action. If bonus actions like Shield Master or TWF acted like this, shouldn't they use the same language?

On your turn, you have an action and your move. The bonus action rules are quite clear that something has to grant you a bonus action before you take take it:

"You can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action. You otherwise don't have a bonus action to take."

Going back to my earlier question, what's an example of a bonus action that has a timing requirement using your definition of bonus action timing? The examples I've been using have triggers that must be satisfied before you can even take the bonus action. The Rogue's Cunning Action is an example of a bonus action with no timing requirement. Shield Master and TWF are ones that have a trigger in the standard form of "If X, Y", and thus the trigger must be satisfied before you can even take the bonus action. Using your "formal constructs" example, you might move 10 feet and make a melee attack, and since the trigger of the Attack action has occurred, move another 10 feet and use your Shield Master bonus action to shove someone with your shield. As you pointed out, the sequence and timing of all of this is extremely important, because until you actually make an attack, you don't have a bonus action from the Shield Master feat. Right? I'm really not following your suggestion that you can just do extra stuff as part of your attack action from features like Shield Master, TWF, Martial Arts and so on. We have examples of class features that do that (e.g. Dread Ambusher) and the language of those does not match the bonus actions granted by Shield Master, TWF or Martial Arts. Fundamentally, 5E is a turn-based game, which pretty heavily implies the ordering of operations is important, right?

So yeah, let's take a step back: what's an example of a bonus action that has a timing requirement? The bonus action rules talk about those, so they must exist in the rules somewhere.

FrogReaver · Feb 27, 2019

epithet said:
I don't see the failure. You don't just disengage once and have done with it, you continually disengage for the rest of your turn. Whatever else you may do during that turn, you're also disengaging so that your movement doesn't provoke Oppos. That's why you don't provoke... you're still disengaging.

You can’t mov during an action. Only before or after.

Asgorath · Feb 27, 2019

FrogReaver said:
You can’t mov during an action. Only before or after.

Right, this is what I was getting at above. It seems to me like a turn-based game like 5E would use discrete elements for combat. That certainly seems like the simplest solution. There's a rule that you can split your move up on your turn, allowing you to move before another type of discrete operation (such as an action). After all, the combat mechanics are simulating what's happening in a roughly-6-second round where everybody is acting at the same time, but that just doesn't translate well to the tabletop. Discrete events removes any possibility of nested or simultaneous actions, which sounds really hard to keep track of. The natural extension of this is that if you have abilities that rely on a trigger, some event must happen to satisfy that trigger's condition before you can use that ability.

So, in each round, everyone takes their turn in the order specified by initiative. On your turn, you do discrete things: "I do X, then I do Y, then I do Z". X might be move 10 feet, Y might be the Attack action, and Z might be move some more. In the case of a triggered ability, Z might be to make the TWF off-hand attack, which is available on your turn after Y happens.

The language for reactions seems to support this, for example:

"If the reaction interrupts another creature's turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction."

This suggests to me that there are 3 distinct events here:

1) The event that triggers the reaction.
2) The reaction itself.
3) The next part of the original creature's turn.

And once again, this follows the simple "If X, Y" pattern where the X part must be true (note that I'm saying true here, not completed) before Y can happen.

epithet · Feb 27, 2019

FrogReaver said:
You can’t mov during an action. Only before or after.

What? Where are you reading that?

Ovinomancer · Feb 27, 2019

epithet said:
What? Where are you reading that?

The rules? It's been quoted here a few times. Try the SRD under combat, it's in the first bits.

Ovinomancer · Feb 27, 2019

Here it is:

srd said:
Breaking Up Your Move

You can break up your Movement on Your Turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet.

DND_Reborn · Feb 27, 2019

A perfect example is a rogue using Cunning action. Suppose my initiative comes up:

1. my character moves 10 feet to engage his target
2. uses his action to Attack
3. uses his Cunning Action to Disengage after the attack, and
4. then uses the remaining move to retreat 20 feet away without provoking the OA.

Now, suppose during my retreat I pass through a space controlled by another target. Normally, that would provoke an OA, but since my character took the Disengage action, which lasts until my turn is over, I would NOT provoke an OA from the second target when passing through his controlled space.

I could also revise the order slightly. Suppose I use my bonus action to Disengage (I have no one around me), then move to my target, attack, and move away with my remaining speed left over. I could pass through anyone's space and not provoke an OA at all because I began my turn by Disengaging as my bonus action.

Additionally, this is why goblins and other with Nimble Escape can be so annoying. They can always use Disengage first, the move, attack, and move away; all without ever provoking OAs. Pesky little buggers!

Asgorath · Feb 27, 2019

Ovinomancer said:
Here it is:

Right, so based on this:

"You can break up your Movement on Your Turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet."

Let's say your action here was to Disengage. Your turn has 3 distinct elements:

1) You move 10 feet.
2) You take the Disengage action.
3) You move 20 feet.

The effect of the action lasts for the specified duration, which in this case is the rest of your turn. Thus, the movement in (3) does not provoke OAs. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

FrogReaver · Feb 27, 2019

epithet said:
What? Where are you reading that?

"You can break up your Movement on Your Turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet."

The only thing the game allows is moving before or after your action. The attack action with extra attacks is an explicit exception. The disengage action has no such exception.

DND_Reborn · Feb 27, 2019

FrogReaver said:
The disengage action has no such exception.

It doesn't need one, does it? After all, you are only moving on your turn, and the Disengage benefits lasts until the end of your turn. I'm not even certain who is arguing which side anymore! LOL

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Asgorath

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FrogReaver

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Asgorath

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epithet

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Ovinomancer

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Ovinomancer

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DND_Reborn

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Asgorath

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FrogReaver

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DND_Reborn

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