OGC and what a RPG should be?

[AustEvergreen]

rangerreg and other comments

Rangerreg, I see you've now posted here almost as much as I have. It's amazing to me, the number of people who will step up and try and defend a company like wotc, (not just you). Are you all trying to encourage this type of activity by them? Just a thought. At first I looked at your comment about PnP gaming and how you thought we shouldn't need a crutch like PCGen to enjoy the game. Well, you did strike guilt there. But I don't enjoy re-inventing the wheel.......numerous times (for each sourcebook I enter data from. BTW I work a keyboard all day and you must type much faster than I do. And I'm no slouch.). I've done the total PnP route enough. I have a family and other activities also. I don't just play DnD. So... guilt moderated a bit. I later started wondering what a Pen and Paper advocate was doing here (in this section of the message boards). But that's not terribly important. I do understand that large companies move slowly sometimes. I guess that's a certain lack of market nimbleness on wotc's part. No offense meant by any comment here btw (not even to wotc. I just want them to act more intelligently. If you want an example go see baen books web page for their on line library).

Oh, and no, I'm not a developer. I program at work all day at a university. I want to do other stuff at home.

So back to topic.................It seems like most of the other posts here support Wotc more than condemn them for their missdeeds. Is no one else upset about this? What has the world come to? A few heartfelt, of course, "Right on man!"s would be much appreciated if anyone actually feels this way.

 

[Fast Learner]

Re: rangerreg and other comments

It seems like most of the other posts here support Wotc more than condemn them for their missdeeds. Is no one else upset about this? What has the world come to? A few heartfelt, of course, "Right on man!"s would be much appreciated if anyone actually feels this way.

Sorry, man, here's another guy who disagrees with you, but you're far from the first to bring up this idea. Just peruse some of the previous threads in this forum: there are plenty of outraged folks like you who have started similar threads, so that's a form of support.

 

[Twin Rose]

Re: rangerreg and other comments

It seems like most of the other posts here support Wotc more than condemn them for their missdeeds. Is no one else upset about this? What has the world come to? A few heartfelt, of course, "Right on man!"s would be much appreciated if anyone actually feels this way.

Many of us have first hand experience working with Wizard's of the Coast and have learned they are -not- an evil corporate giant but a company willing to work with smaller companies to expand the market. They move slowly - so what? I'd rather they took their time and did things right than release stuff early that they later have to change because it wasn't okay with their legal department. Many of us smaller companies own all the rights to the stuff we work with, so we can release it as OGC or we can do whatever we want with it.

 

[Nine Hands]

Re: rangerreg and other comments

So back to topic.................It seems like most of the other posts here support Wotc more than condemn them for their missdeeds. Is no one else upset about this? What has the world come to? A few heartfelt, of course, "Right on man!"s would be much appreciated if anyone actually feels this way.

As sort of an insider to the development of PCGen (my name is on the product but I don't do much for it now other than complain and suggest features), I was at GenCon when Anthony V. spoke with the developers (although I was not at the meeting myself) and found him and the rest of the people at WOTC to be very friendly and helpful.

My discussions with Bryan, Mynex, Emily, and Leopold left me with the feeling that WOTC was VERY helpful and wanted the product to continue on (within the confines of the d20 license). It was nice to sit with them and hash out how the code was going to change and what was needed to comply. PCGen has grown alot in the months since GenCon and I am pretty impressed with it (although I dislike the removal of the die rolling, but that is another story).

I have a feeling that WOTC will allow PCGen to use its IP and non-SRD material asE-tools is an OK product but just can't cut it for most things (templates are my biggest issue with it). I would not be surprised if some WOTC employees use it to make characters

 

[Ranger REG]

Re: rangerreg and other comments

Rangerreg, I see you've now posted here almost as much as I have. It's amazing to me, the number of people who will step up and try and defend a company like wotc, (not just you). Are you all trying to encourage this type of activity by them?

So back to topic.................It seems like most of the other posts here support Wotc more than condemn them for their missdeeds. Is no one else upset about this? What has the world come to? A few heartfelt, of course, "Right on man!"s would be much appreciated if anyone actually feels this way.

Well, except for their decision to go with Fluid (no apologies from here, business is business) to develop their e-Tools, I will not condemn a PnP game publisher because they simply cannot do software. That's NOT my priority when it comes to my RPG hobby.

 

[AustEvergreen]

resigned but resolute?

Ok, I'm done. But my opinion is unchanged. WOTC could have done it better. And as an example of a company doing it better I'll point everyone again to baen (no I don't own stock). I will admit that if there is support for my point of view out there it's to shy to say so or hasn't found it's way here. Too bad, I feel the discussion was slightly unbalanced.

And I'll say this again. I use software to make my life easier. It takes a lot less time to create characters using tools like PCGen, (or Redblade or what have you. I haven't tried the others.) My hat is off to those who spend their time doing this; or would be if I wore one. I can spend my time thinking of what I want a character I'm developing to be like instead of counting skill points or what have you when creating it. In my book that's a major plus. Sorry Rangereg I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. For me the idea that a game like DnD came out without (an adequate) tool to manage the overhead of the game indicates something is wrong. I realize that puts my opinion in the minority at this point, but I don't feel that's bad.

Thanks to all who participated. I'm sure we'll discuss more later, but about something else.

 

[Joshua Randall]

IP is valuable and must be protected.

The Intellectual Property (IP) that WotC owns (non-OGC) is valuable. In fact, IP may be the only thing generating value for WotC! Thus, the company must act to protect its IP. To do otherwise would be bad business and, frankly, stupid.

As more and more companies derive value from IP instead of physical goods, people might begin to appreciate the fact that just because something only exists as words/software doesn't make it free. Nor do you have the right to demand free IP from WotC anymore than you have the right to demand a free car from GM.

 

[Ranger REG]

Re: resigned but resolute?

Sorry Rangereg I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. For me the idea that a game like DnD came out without (an adequate) tool to manage the overhead of the game indicates something is wrong. I realize that puts my opinion in the minority at this point, but I don't feel that's bad.

Fine by me.

Just out of curiosity, how did you get into PnP RPG?

 

[AustEvergreen]

Thought I was done but..........

For: Rangerreg .
How did I get into PnP Gaming? ok. Oddly enough I was introduced by a past girlfriend in 1985 to first edition DnD.

For JERandall. YOU REALLY NEED TO GO VISIT WWW.BAEN.COM and see it done BETTER. This is not as much about copyright as it is about the correct way to treat a customer ......namely "US"...... WOTC's treatment of the gaming community is stupid. WOTC slamming down the hammer on the third party publishers is a slap in the face of the DnD game user and was not necessary at all. Personally, I'm tired of publishers over asserting their rights. Yes over asserting, and to their own detriment too (re: the RIAA even though I think napster was wrong not payring royalties). I have the suspicion you've never touched PCGen. Now there is someone who's really bent over backward to make a useful product that not only doesn't infringe on wotc copyright (intentionally anyway but then PCGen is free........hmmm have you thought about that.) but promotes sales of the products included in it's database. I have purchased product I first saw there and would not have otherwise even been exposed to. Also there was a day when publishers saw "Fan based" utilities as a sign that their product was doing well and actually appreciated the free press and advertising that it amounted to. Sadly that's gone. Too bad, but maybe PCGen could charge WOTC for the free exposure. Did you consider that angle. It's obvious that many publishing companies have made some terribly bad decisions lately. Not just WOTC. But they and their actions are what we're discussing here. And just for the record copyright law in the US is badly in need of some pro consumer updating. It is and has been heavily biased in favor of publishers to the public's detrement for years.

Lastley JE I paid $ for my DnD books from WOTC. I think I deserve my fair use rights. Those like PCGen that distribute free support for WOTC and D20 products should have been covered under fair user too. If they charged for it, that would be different.

 

[Ranger REG]

Re: Thought I was done but..........

For: Rangerreg .
How did I get into PnP Gaming? ok. Oddly enough I was introduced by a past girlfriend in 1985 to first edition DnD.

Really? I got into it 1982 and have maintained my hobby ever since. What about you? How did you survive the Pre PC-n-PDA Era?

Lastley JE I paid $ for my DnD books from WOTC. I think I deserve my fair use rights.

Actually, Fair Use only covers criticism/review and educational purposes, not entertainment. Games like these is entertainment.

But then I'm not a practicing lawyer.

Those like PCGen that distribute free support for WOTC and D20 products should have been covered under fair user too. If they charged for it, that would be different.

Sorry. It's not just a matter of profiting from someone else's wares without permission. It is DISTRIBUTION.

If PCGen maker, Soulforge, are within their legal right to do what they did because they are protected under the Fair Use law, then they should the court decide.

But they're the ones who initiated a talk with Anthony Valterra last GenCon. They're the ones who wanted to make PCGen more compliant with the licenses, and they're the ones who complied by removing the non-OGC material from their software.

They. Soulforge. PCGen maker.