OGC and what a RPG should be?

[AustEvergreen]

PRE-PC n PDA era survival

Well, I was only a player back then. My girlfriend's older brother, was DM so the only work I had to do was maintaining my own character. I didn't DM a game for about 3 years; and if memory serves that was done mainly by hand. Yes...... I have gone that route. And not having children then I had more time to devote to doing that as well.

I'll make the same comment as you before I say this. "I am not a lawyer". I think (with emphasis on not truly knowing) this extends to things like making backup copies for your own personal use only of software you've purchased and music and taping things broatcast on radio and tv and similar things; but then fair use law is poorly defined, or so I've heard. Fair use is on the slate of future projects at the nations congress right now and hopefully when it is better defined we can only hope that congress will do a good job on this if not much else ;-). This is what the Russion programmer "Skylarov" (sp?) was arrested for at a convention here is the US. He made a program that allowed you to copy something (can't remember exactly what it's from a year ago but of course is has to do with adobe) in line with his countries fair use rights which adobe took great exception to. They arranged to have him arrested when they found he attended a convention in the US and he spent several month's as a guest of the government even after adobe tried to drop all charges because of the backlash the government wouldn't and kept him in custody.

In terms of legal use of materials published by WOTC or anyone for that matter; aren't we lucky they allow us to write down their copyrighted material such as feats and spells onto character sheets and other notes we use to manually play the game with? Of course this is extreme but how many ways have you looked at this issue from.

I still maintain that wotc could have been just a bit on the kinder side of this issue. I'm certain that fair user doesn't cover PCGen now but perhaps it should?

Perhaps someone can tell me exactly how wotc was hurt by what pcgen and redblade and others did? Point to and name an exact wound here. Not a hypothetical one. I already know that they "violated wotc copyright". So what? Where was the harm? I still say wotc could have and definitely should have allowed PCGen and others to keep non-srd material in their data while they were negotiating. That they did not show's a lack of consideration for their customers. And that lack of customer appreciation from a producer of luxury items non the less (or can anyone truly say they couldn't live without DnD if they had to).

 

[herald]

Perhaps someone can tell me exactly how wotc was hurt by what pcgen and redblade and others did? Point to and name an exact wound here. Not a hypothetical one. I already know that they "violated wotc copyright". So what? Where was the harm?

It doesn't make a differance if there was no harm in what they did, WOTC must protect it's Intelectual Property. If it fails to do this for a time and another company comes along and creates another product using WOTC's IP then it becomes harder to go to court to stop the new company for using it.

WOTC would have to prove to the court that it was not unfairly signling out that company unfairly. And since allowing freeware to use it's IP would set a precident of not caring who uses it's IP, it has to go after "Redblade" and others.

So it has nothing to do with the harm that is happening how or the recent past. It has to do with what happens in the future.


Now is where I make my usual caviet. I'm not a lawyer, but this is how I understand IP law as it was explained to me.

Your opinion might vary from mine. So at this point AustEvergreen, I would suggest that you speak to a lawyer who is an IP specialist who can explain exactly how the laws work in this issue and you might get a better understanding of this issue.

 

[kingpaul]

Re: Re: Thought I was done but..........

If PCGen maker, Soulforge

Ummm....actually, Bryan "Merton Monk" McRoberts is PCGen's creator. SourceForge is just a host for Open Source products. You can find more about SourceForge here.

 

[AustEvergreen]

getting in deep

I concede your point. Yes WOTC probably had to go after the various 3rd party publishers of support materials or it would be more difficult for them to persue someone who was more maliciously (sp?) trying to take advantage of them. Don't doubt that and never have. I don't want anyone to take advantage of wotc copyrighted material and profit from it unfairly. This is not in my interest as a customer. I want them to make a decent profit. I also want decent treatment from WOTC, who is as I've already mentioned a producer of luxury goods and should have the "we need to be tip toeing on thin egg shells" attitude with regards to how to treat their customer base. And they don't seem to have this attitude. I don't see it. Or perhaps it's better to say I don't see things that way. It's been pointed out to me here that they've bent over backwards to be nice. I disagree. WOTC could have allowed the various producers of utility programs to keep the non-srd material in their databases while negotiations were underway and did not and this is their "Sin" against us, the customer. Saying that WOTC was completely within it's legal rights is irrelevant. Not everything legal to do is also moral or right to do, and from my perspective I've been (yes only slightly, but still enough for me to be steamed about it) harmed by what they did. Inconvenienced. Is that more accurate? I purchased the srd books and all the splat books and what's more Forgotten Realms material which I have been using for an ongoing campaign where I've been using PCGen to help in the maintainence of the characters and NPC's in my campaign. Now I'm cut off with not much in the way of relief in sight My point of view is now that I regret purchasing the splat books and the FR materials because they're unusable at the moment and for the forseable future. Wasted $, perhaps. If WOTC allows this material to be included in PCGen database in the future, when they do I'll probably be cool with this but for now........ "If it's not OGC then I'm not buying it!". The sooner they do this or something more or less equivalent the happier I (and I believe many others) will be. The sooner they reach agreement the less harm they do to the level of trust their DnD customer base has in them.

I have to wonder if WOTC is aware that some of their customers are unhappy with what they've done?

 

[herald]

WOTC could have allowed the various producers of utility programs to keep the non-srd material in their databases while negotiations were underway and did not and this is their "Sin" against us, the customer.

What negotiations are you talking about?

Much of the software that was made available by third parties was out for over a year before WOTC took action. It then sent out C&D letters asking people to stop.

Hasbro is a much tougher on people they feel are stealing IP and generally go straight for the lawyers. Ask the guy who makes up the "Get Out of Hell Free" Cards and sells them on the internet. He basically is creating parody cards and had a long fight with them. Monopoly is sacred to them. Mess with Uncle Moneybags and bad things will happen.

The sheer fact that WOTC agreed to meet and speak with any software maker other than "Fluid" proves that they are serious about the OGL and the STL.

They have an obligation to release all the information to all individuals at the same time or the OGL and the STL is worthless. Companies like Morris's Natural 20 Press would be at a disadvantage if PCGEN others could use non-SRD material and he couldn't in his products. After all why is it fair that electronic products get this treatment, but not print.

Honestly, if they weren't going to release the PRCs in any of the other splatbooks, why would they bother with adding the psionics material to the SRD?

It's my opinion that WOTC is running with a modest, but serious amount of autonomy from Hasbro. (don't bring up the layoffs, I know, I know). Saddly at this point all I have to tell you is that if you want to get your PrCs back in PCGEN, your just going to have to wait.

 

[Ranger REG]

Re: Re: Re: Thought I was done but..........

Ummm....actually, Bryan "Merton Monk" McRoberts is PCGen's creator. SourceForge is just a host for Open Source products. You can find more about SourceForge here.

My bad. I stand corrected.

 

[AustEvergreen]

Perhaps I have this wrong re negotiations but........

re: what negotiations I'm talking about..... Perhaps none are happening but that's not what I've "heard". For more on this I'll refer you to the post made earlier by nine hands who claims to be "something of an insider to the development of PCGen". Also I have never heard that any earlier letter was issued to anyone to stop (before the convention mentioned by nine hands). Perhaps this is how things happened, perhaps not. I have my assumptions, You have yours of course too. Maybe WOTC would be so kind as to enlighten us by telling us when what event happened. Either way I'm still steamed about this. Either way it's still a bad way for WOTC to treat the gaming community who are their paying customers, in my opinion. I have reviewed other threads in this area and have seen others make a similar statement about not purchasing WOTC product. If you want to make use of a utility program like PCGen to maintain your campaign why purchase anything not available within that utilities database. Incentive for me to purchase any new realms books is pretty low now.

I would like to see an official wotc reply posted here, there is some serious customer dissatisfaction going on right now............but I think that it's most likely that they'll remain silent.

I know everyone doesn't agree. That's ok.
What I would have liked to have seen done with DnD3e is that when books were published they included a patch to "Mastertools" of whatever you wish to call it which included all the new material their-in. I think that in these times that new RPG's should come with programs like character generators and should come with patches for the update books included within. Especially for what we're paying for them. Less in the way of "Hidden costs" that way. And if the publisher is not so inclined then they should give blanket permission for developement by someone else of this, certainly with the provision that if it's done for profit that they get their fair share of that profit. Please don't post here that I'm suggesting that RPG companies give away their copyrighted material, because that's not what I'm saying. Cars all come with radio's and rear view mirrors now. RPG games should come with maintainence software.

 

[herald]

AustEvergreen
I understand what you are asking for, but you really need to think of all the legal costs it would take to try and allow what your asking for. We could go round and round about this, but in reality, if this is what you think is fair, talk to a lawyer and ask him if he feels that this is possible. I don't think that you will like his answer.

 

[bushfire]

Re: Perhaps I have this wrong re negotiations but........

I know everyone doesn't agree. That's ok.

ok

What I would have liked to have seen done with DnD3e is that when books were published they included a patch to "Mastertools" of whatever you wish to call it which included all the new material their-in. I think that in these times that new RPG's should come with programs like character generators and should come with patches for the update books included within. Especially for what we're paying for them. Less in the way of "Hidden costs" that way.

You mean like *every other* RPG publisher does

Where do you get the idea that Wotc, or any other game company, is obligated to provide you with software to use thier product? I mean, I can see that you want it badly but so what. Hundreds of thousands of people play D&D every week, and only a small percentage of them are using any kind of computer program to do it.

As far as costs of RPG products how much more are you willing to spend to get these "updates". Nothing comes for free. I get the impression you already think costs are too high as it is. How much more to have a CD stuck in every book (manually done btw), let alone having the data sets created and debugged? And why should those who don't need or want such material have to pay for it?

And if the publisher is not so inclined then they should give blanket permission for developement by someone else of this, certainly with the provision that if it's done for profit that they get their fair share of that profit. Please don't post here that I'm suggesting that RPG companies give away their copyrighted material, because that's not what I'm saying.

But you *are* suggesting they give away thier copyrighted material. RPG games do not come with software (the PHB only shipped with a *demo* in the first printings) so Wotc (or anyone else) has no obligation to provide you with updates for free *or* for profit. Wotc has released some of thier material via the OGL/D20 and that people can and do use in programs with Wotc's blessings. Everything else they publish is copyrighted to them or licensed from other copyright holders. I can't see them giving "blanket permission" to anyone for any reason.

Cars all come with radio's and rear view mirrors now. RPG games should come with maintainence software.

Should, maybe, but as of now they don't. I can't think of one RPG that comes with "maintenance software". Not GURPS, not Rifts, not even Rolemaster.

 

[AustEvergreen]

obligation vs..........

Hearld: I'm not talking primarily about law but about customer service. I'm not interested in a lawyers opinion here. Drop it, please.

Bushfire: No, That's my point. They don't. So I understand once (before my time) cars did not come with things like radio's or rear view mirrors or seat belts. These things were added later for various reasons. At least some of the reason was that this is what the customer wanted, though it is more complicated than that. I understand that there was opposition to adding some of these features to cars at one time. Too expensive perhaps? Who'll pay for that? ----------- Was it really more expensive in the long run?

Obligation......... what a interesting concept. Publisher's aren't obligated to do a lot of things we take for granted and would be upset if these 'rights' dissappeared on us. When you buy a book you can loan it to a friend legally (or so I believe anyway, please no see a lawyer advice here. If you are one quote the law here, if not leave that alone) and they can read it and loan it out etc. all without paying any more to the publisher. Is this right? I think so, but various others would dissagree, I'm sure. ok.... this is kind of, but not completely off topic here. WOTC does things not because of obligation but because it's good business and it makes them money (or at least causes them not to lose money). I've heard before that "the customer is allways right". If enough people are upset about this and make their opinion known this will become good business.