OGC Wiki?

[BryonD]

Please do not post about things that you know nothing about. I do not appreciate your attempt at humor and your failure to even know of my products, while implying that I do nothing but sell other publishers' OGC, is offensive.

I would rather see this thread remain civil and posts like that are most certainly not necessary.

seconded

 

[BryonD]

Wow. So all you do is provide mechanics? No interesting background, no decent fluff? You book is nothing but 100% mechanics, with nothing else to offer?

I think you sell yourself short.

Yeah, nobody wants a book filled with busted mechanics. But I'm willing to believe you also have good text besides

Long Sword +2, keen.

Yes, your monster mechanics are probably excellent, but what about appearance, the way the interact, their society, thier diet, etc?

I'd be willing to bet it's BOTH that attracts your customers, not just nice clean mechanics.


I quite agree.


But they aren't the end all be all of the book. Acting like they are frankly baffles me.

I mean, if you want to be insulted by it, are considering I'm saying that mechanics are worthless and only junk, feel free to look me up on YIM and we'll scream at each other there. I'm not insulting you or your ability to do mechanics, but I sincerely doubt that your mechanical skills are the only reason your have a loyal customer base.

I think you are wrong.

I won't begin to claim to speak for the masses. Hell, sometimes I feel like the lone voice in the wilderness but I really disagree.

I know first hand that Wulf is capable of awesome fluff.
But Grim Tales really is an AWESOME CRUNCH book. It is a pure building kit for making anything you want out of. And that it does such an excellent job of this is why I like it so much.

Paying for fluff in a book is, to me, paying someone else to play the game for me.
Long Sword, +2 Keen for me please. I'll do the rest myself. That is what I call "fun".

 

[gamecat]

Ahem. Perhaps I'm not eloquent or knowledgeable enough here.

The "Best of OGC ][" comment was hyperbole - it seems okay from the outside looking in - to republish someone else's OGC.

Wouldn't the OGC wiki promote the original source of the OGC? I think it would anyway, now that I think about it. I can prepare for games from the SRD. Does that mean I prefer to? Absolutely not. I'm much happier to use my PHB - its got all manner of pretty pictures, and more meaningful fluff text.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Wow. So all you do is provide mechanics? No interesting background, no decent fluff? You book is nothing but 100% mechanics, with nothing else to offer?

Grim Tales doesn't need to offer anything else. I assume you have not been exposed to the product.

Sure, I have a certain "voice" when it comes to my writing, and I certainly wouldn't call it dry-- but no, no fluff.

I sincerely doubt that your mechanical skills are the only reason your have a loyal customer base.

That's not the only reason I have a loyal customer base, no. I also have a loyal customer base just from... let's just call it "outreach and accessibility."

But there's no fluff in Grim Tales, nor in any of the mechanics-oriented material I produce. I can write fluff, it's just something I don't really enjoy, and I'd rather outsource it on those occasions that I feel the product needs it.

It's just not true that any GM can come up with good crunch. I am learning things all the time from other designers (even casual ones here on ENworld) who come up with innovative ways to do things that I would never have thought to try.

 

[jezter6]

Keep in mind that I wouldn't do these products if people didn't want them. The focus may have changed but the product type is still in demand.

What you're effectively saying is that because you don't like this type of product it's okay if an OGC Wiki would kill sales of this type of product.

If it would cause a change in product focus to something I am more interested in, absolutlely.

Phil, you write some decent stuff, or at least have writers that produce decent stuff. I would love nothing more than to have your books. I don't like the format, or the cost, so I don't buy them, although I want them. I don't go scouring P2P networks for them.

If an OGC wiki caused you to put out a bigger book with all your magic items, then I am all for it. If an OGC wiki caused you to put out a book with 25 starship deck plans in one magical file that flowed together like Jameson's and Guiness, I'm all for it.

So yeah, if it gets me what I want, then I think it would be good. I'm a gamer, I'm in this for ME. It's not my duty to support things that I don't want to. I am under no obligation to make a living for you. If doing this gets me my games, in my format, at my price, why not?

Obviously some people thought the same way when they started with the small PDF thing. They made their sacrifices to get the product they wanted. The sacrificed a little extra money for the exact product they wanted.

 

[Man-thing]

If an OGC wiki caused you to put out a book with 25 starship deck plans in one magical file that flowed together like Jameson's and Guiness, I'm all for it.

Both Forbidden Arcana and DM's Directory of Demiplanes where excellent large books that never found an audience...or at least an audience they deserved.

I can understand why Phil doesn't make large books.

 

[jezter6]

Wouldn't the OGC wiki promote the original source of the OGC? I think it would anyway, now that I think about it. I can prepare for games from the SRD. Does that mean I prefer to? Absolutely not. I'm much happier to use my PHB - its got all manner of pretty pictures, and more meaningful fluff text.

Depends on how it's laid out. You can't legally reference the product the content came from without explicit permission from the publisher. To get that, you'll likely need to allow them to cripple their OGC as stated so that you can't get the info you want in one quick place, but digest in the the fashion that they deem worthy. Plus, if it goes as stated where publishers put their OWN stuff up, they choose what goes up and when. So you might get installments of OGC until the puzzle is put together, or you'll get some of the crappier OGC and they'll keep the 'good stuff' to themselves.
IMHO, the theory of the license is all your 'open content' is open to everyone, but as it seems to be explained here...some is open to all, more is open only to people that will you use it in the manner the publisher sees fits, and ALL is only open to people they want it to be open to. And that is where I see the problems of people attempting to dictate how/when/why their open content can be used, even though the license doesn't require it.

 

[jezter6]

Both Forbidden Arcana and DM's Directory of Demiplanes where excellent large books that never found an audience...or at least an audience they deserved.

I can understand why Phil doesn't make large books.

I can see why he doesn't make large books ONLY. What I don't like is the subdividing of what used to be a book into 3-5 page blurbs and selling them individually, where the total price of the items is now 2, 3, 5 times the cost (to the consumer) as the whole book used to cost.

Personally, I'd rather see phil hold the individual pieces till a full book is ready, then cut the pieces out and sell both as an option. 1 whole book fully ready for $12, each piece $1.35. That way you have the option to buy it how you want it.

But at this point, my ONLY option is to pay thru the teeth and still have a jumbled mess of PDFs to get what amounts to 1 book. All I want is the option, not saying phil shouldn't put out the individuals for those that want it. Phil takes the advice of those who wanted singles, but I've asked many times for the opposite and I am ignored. I'm not good enough to be a Ronin Arts customer, I guess.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Grim Tales doesn't need to offer anything else. I assume you have not been exposed to the product.

Actually I have. That's why I said you sell yourself short.

You write excellent products, provide excellent service, are quick to answer questions.

But mechanics are only part of it.

Sure, I have a certain "voice" when it comes to my writing, and I certainly wouldn't call it dry-- but no, no fluff.

By fluff, in this instance, I am referring to ALL non-mechanics writing.

That's not the only reason I have a loyal customer base, no. I also have a loyal customer base just from... let's just call it "outreach and accessibility."

Once again, more than just straight mechanics.

But there's no fluff in Grim Tales, nor in any of the mechanics-oriented material I produce. I can write fluff, it's just something I don't really enjoy, and I'd rather outsource it on those occasions that I feel the product needs it.

I will reiterate: It isn't JUST the straight mechanics in your stuff that makes it good.

I think we're saying the same things, just a bit differently in a lot of cases. We may be using a different intrepetation of the word fluff (I'm using it as anything not straight mechanic) but I have seen your work, and do like it. It's more than simple mechanics, it's far more than that, I really do feel that you're selling yourself short saying it's only your mechanics that give you your loyal customer base.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I think we're saying the same things, just a bit differently in a lot of cases. We may be using a different intrepetation of the word fluff (I'm using it as anything not straight mechanic) but I have seen your work, and do like it. It's more than simple mechanics, it's far more than that, I really do feel that you're selling yourself short saying it's only your mechanics that give you your loyal customer base.

Well then let's get to the heart of the matter.

If you took all the game mechanics out out of Grim Tales and posted it for free, what do you suppose would be the effect on my sales?