OGL & GSL D&D variants?

[Ranger REG]

As a guy who is losing his love for 3.5 (and has no interest in 4th edition or Pathfinder), I was wondering if their were any variants of 3rd or 4th edition in the works for publication.

I thought Pathfinder is a 3e variant. At least derived from 3.5e SRD (and MSRD).

 

[Dragonblade]

Well, Paizo has promised that the final version of Pathfinder will fit that bill.

So here's a suggestion for you. In my opinion, the reason 3.5 gets un-fun at higher levels is because of three main problems:

1. BAB gets too high for certain classes after a while

2. The disparity of saves makes it so that you're always sure to make certain saves and always sure to fail other saves.

3. Too many buffs, which are allowed to keep stacking endlessly, which complicate things to the point where each action in combat becomes a major feat of accounting.

My solution is to stick with 3.5, but make some modifications, as follows:

1. Use the 4th edition system. Rather than every class having its own BAB progression, it is instead 1/2 level + ability modifier for all classes.

2. Again, use the 4th edition system. All saves for all classes are 1/2 level + ability modifier.

3. Limit all characters to a maximum of 5 buffs at any given time. If that's still too much, reduce to 3.

These would be simple changes to implement, and I think they would be hardly noticeable at lower levels, but they would make a huge difference at higher levels.

Those changes still don't address some of the fundamental problems with 3.5. It only makes bookkeeping a bit easier and more consistent.

For example, Save or Lose effects would still exist and IMO is still a fundamental 3e system flaw, especially at higher levels.

Essentially any game mechanic where a player can fail a single die roll and go from full health to completely incapacitated and out for the rest of a combat (which can mean a player sits out for an hour or more of real time) is a fundamentally flawed game mechanic.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is of course welcome to their opinion, but is just further proof to me that the split between 3e and 4e fans is utterly irreconcilable.

 

[Voadam]

Those changes still don't address some of the fundamental problems with 3.5. It only makes bookkeeping a bit easier and more consistent.

For example, Save or Lose effects would still exist and IMO is still a fundamental 3e system flaw, especially at higher levels.

Essentially any game mechanic where a player can fail a single die roll and go from full health to completely incapacitated and out for the rest of a combat (which can mean a player sits out for an hour or more of real time) is a fundamentally flawed game mechanic.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is of course welcome to their opinion, but is just further proof to me that the split between 3e and 4e fans is utterly irreconcilable.

Eh, for me incapacitated for one combat is not fun but not nearly as big a deal as save or die, game over effects. Instant incapacitation is an issue of mood and pacing for the game experience. Some like having that kind of instant incapacitation risk as part of the challenge. What is too long to be incapacitated in a game will vary from individual to individual. In general I prefer more of the 4e style of shorter incapacitation with active resistance rolls to keep people actively focused on the game, but I don't consider the existence of such types of instant incapacitation conditions as a fundamental flaw of 3e.

And since you are criticizing Pathfinder add ons here my understanding is they already changed most save or lose spell effects to either damaging ones or hold person style save each round mechanics.

Houseruling that type of save each round mechanic to things like a ghoul's paralysis and other save or lose effects seems easy to me.

Similarly they toned down overwhelming grappling disparities as well so that grappling is easier to have grappling situations go back and forth instead of a binary win/lose situation before the roll.

People will disagree about what are the fundamental problems of games and of how to fix them.

 

[Kerrick]

I've looked at E6 but hadn't heard of E8. Time to check that out now.

I just wish that SOMEONE could publish a streamlined version of 3.X that allows for high-level play without high-level headaches. Short of that, I guess C&C, E8 or Fantasy Craft (which looks pretty promising) will have to do.

It's E6 - he just wasn't sure what it was actually called.

As for me, I'm working on a 3.5 revision called Project Phoenix. It will be a free, online resource; I'm hoping to have the wiki online this weekend with at least some basic stuff while I flesh out the rest.

I thought Pathfinder is a 3e variant. At least derived from 3.5e SRD (and MSRD).

It is, but he said he wasn't interested in Pathfinder.

 

[Aus_Snow]

It's E6 - he just wasn't sure what it was actually called.

Har har, nice one. Of course - just so the other person is in on it too - E8 (along with E10 and possibly E12) is simply a variant of E6, capping at a higher level, indicated by the number following the 'E'. E8 in particular was worth mentioning, because it seems to have been the most popular other than good ol' E6 (my preferred starting base) itself.

 

[jmucchiello]

For example, Save or Lose effects would still exist and IMO is still a fundamental 3e system flaw, especially at higher levels.

Given the way Darrin merged 4e into 3.5e, I fail to see how hard it would be to turn the various save or die effects into their 4e equivalents. Or to implement the 4e saving throw.

Heck you can just throw out the save or die aspects of 3.5e by just banning the effects. Or, make all death effects just put you at -1 hp and bleeding. If you get healed up, you're back in the fight. Eliminate ability drain/damage because it is annoying. (Keep energy drain since -X to all d20 rolls is not as hard to keep track of. You might make it "lasts until a long rest" though rather than worrying about next day saving throws.) Petrification? Heck that's what 3-4 monsters and a spell? Doesn't seem hard to avoid using if you don't want it in your game. Am I missing any important save or die effects?

Oh yeah, regarding the OP, there are no GSL-based alternate systems since the GSL forbids them. All these things must be OGL (or plan-old-copyright) based.

 

[Darrin Drader]

Given the way Darrin merged 4e into 3.5e, I fail to see how hard it would be to turn the various save or die effects into their 4e equivalents. Or to implement the 4e saving throw.

Heck you can just throw out the save or die aspects of 3.5e by just banning the effects. Or, make all death effects just put you at -1 hp and bleeding. If you get healed up, you're back in the fight. Eliminate ability drain/damage because it is annoying. (Keep energy drain since -X to all d20 rolls is not as hard to keep track of. You might make it "lasts until a long rest" though rather than worrying about next day saving throws.) Petrification? Heck that's what 3-4 monsters and a spell? Doesn't seem hard to avoid using if you don't want it in your game. Am I missing any important save or die effects?

Oh yeah, totally. I'm not a big fan of save or die, but I do like save or be temporarily but horrendously screwed. I wouldn't even go -1 hit points. I'd go zero so that you're automatically stable but unconscious.

As for handling the difficulties involved with polymorph and wildshape - just adopt the Pathfinder method.

I think it's very easy to cobble together a workable 3.5 variant. Just keep effects consistent throughout, and also remember to increase monster CRs by about 1/3 and it should work well.

 

[scruffygrognard]

I thought Pathfinder is a 3e variant. At least derived from 3.5e SRD (and MSRD).

It certainly is and, for a while, I was very excited about its release. As more and more "power ups" and rule tweaks that didn't necessarily facilitate faster game play were tacked on my excitement level dropped significantly.

 

[scruffygrognard]

Thanks for all of the suggestion Darrins, JMucchiello, Dragonblade and Voadam.

Kerrick and Raven Crowking: Good luck with your 3.X variants... I'll definitely check on in them as you post stuff.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Thanks for all of the suggestion Darrins, JMucchiello, Dragonblade and Voadam.

Kerrick and Raven Crowking: Good luck with your 3.X variants... I'll definitely check on in them as you post stuff.

You will note that I borrowed from Pathfinder in areas that I thought it was strong, but went more in the direction of earlier editions. 1-15 level classes, where 1-3 is starting out, 3-6 is established, 6-9 is heroic (think Tarzan or Conan heroic, not Superman heroic), 10-14 are campaign movers and shakers, and 15 is epic.


RC