Ok, can someone explain the "mook rule"

[Gothmog]

I have played in a couple of short games recently where the GMs were very fond of using "mooks". From what I can understand of it, it entails the PCs being virtual supermen in a world of incompetent featherweight pushovers (much like the main characters in Star Wars vs. Stormtroopers). The only danger posed to characters in such worlds are when there are about 10 mooks for every PC, when the PCs do something incredibly stupid, or if the PCs run into another PC-level character. In one game (post apolcalyptic), our group of 4 PCs ran into 10 raiders armed with sawed-off shotguns and axes stripping a damaged mech for parts. I remembered thinking "Oh crap, we should really try to lure these guys away a few at a time from their base before we attack, especially since we are 4 against 10, and none of us are good in combat." It ended up that the other players decided to attack, and we charged headlong into the camp and killed the raiders, with hardly a scratch. The raiders, on the other hand, died in one or two hits from small-caliber pistols, arrows, or melee weapon blows. The GM later told us he deliberately made the raiders "mooks" and easy for our band to deal with. I was kinda geared up for a tough encounter, but instead it was a big letdown.

For me, this takes a lot of fun out of playing, if I know that my character is nigh invulnerable and can mow through hordes of "lesser beings". I think the GM was trying to go for a "heroic" feel to his game, but IMO heroes are not heroic because they can kill hordes of enemies, but for their actions and beliefs. Maybe I just don't "get it", but using mooks seems to encourage a huge sense of invincibility on the part of the characters, and devalues the roles of other NPCs in the campaign since if the PCs don't like them or don't want to have to deal with them, they can just mow through annoyances without really giving it much thought. What are your thoughts about mooks, and have you used them in your games? If so, why?

 

[Saeviomagy]

What are your thoughts about mooks, and have you used them in your games? If so, why?

Mooks should be used to simulate the flavour of genres such as hong kong action movies and some superhero stories.

However - your DM should take pains to let you know that Mook rules are in effect, and who is a mook, or there is no point to them.

Once you know that mook rules are in effect, it's fairly easy to pick mooks from normal human beings. Then, when your character is relatively safe, you can try all sorts of wacky stunts to take out as many mooks as possible. In superhero campaigns, it's also an opportunity to showcase unusual uses of your powers, and to make some witty remarks.

In general - you need to not be in heavy tactical mode to have fun during a mook combat. Take the non optimal "cool" route rather than the strategically sound route.

Finally - mooks should be a credible threat. They should have the ability to gradually whittle you down and soften you up for the main badguys.

 

[Numion]

For me, this takes a lot of fun out of playing, if I know that my character is nigh invulnerable and can mow through hordes of "lesser beings". I think the GM was trying to go for a "heroic" feel to his game, but IMO heroes are not heroic because they can kill hordes of enemies, but for their actions and beliefs. Maybe I just don't "get it", but using mooks seems to encourage a huge sense of invincibility on the part of the characters, and devalues the roles of other NPCs in the campaign since if the PCs don't like them or don't want to have to deal with them, they can just mow through annoyances without really giving it much thought. What are your thoughts about mooks, and have you used them in your games? If so, why?

It seems to me that you actually "did get" the idea of mooks, but simply didn't like it. Thats ok, and in this case it was amplified by miscommunication, namely the DM/GM failed to tell you beforehand that he was going to use mooks. The mook rules IMO rely on the fact that players know when they're facing grunts, and when not.

Personally I don't use specific mook rules or anything like that (there are games with rules that specifically say that PCs can't be killed by mooks, etc.). I do, however, use hordes of weaker enemies from time to time, even when PCs are at high level in D&D. While I usually stick to the DMG guidelines for CRs when designing adventures so that most ELs are close to average characters, it's nice to let players enjoy their characters earned powers by mowing down weaker enemies from time to time. You're right - it's got nothing to do with being a hero, but it's fun!

 

[Nifft]

I don't use Mooks, because I don't have multiple low-CR fights per session. I'd much prefer to actually challenge the PCs when they have to fight.

When the PCs are high enough level, though, the foes that formerly frightened them will probably seem like Mooks. This is deliberate -- I want them to see how far they've come.

-- N

 

[Henry]

Mooks are fine, when you know a game uses them. When they're used, they're easy to spot - they usually have the same equipment, and act like chaotic hordes. Heck, games like Feng Shui couldn't function right without mooks! For that matter, Star Wars, Spycraft, and many other games use faceless hordes as part of their charm. They're a chance for heroes to display their combat prowess and look cool, without being taken out of the action.

Where would the movie "Kill Bill" be without nameless hordes? (Except a few million dollars cheaper, that is)

On the other hand, D&D wasn't necessarily based on "mook rules" they're a convention that REALLY got popularized in Asian Cinema, and in the U.S. and Europe only lightly appeared in serialized cliffhangers and pulps. Some don't like it because it doesn't fit more "gritty" games or games that are more character focused; truthfully, it's not that hard to meld the styles, if done right, and the nameless hordes are not overused.

For me, they don't cause a problem, as long as they aren't used ALL the time.


Except in Feng Shui. I just LOVE me some mooks in my Feng Shui.

 

[d4]

i think Numion has it right -- you understand the gist of what mooks are and why they're used, but it didn't seem like you enjoyed it. that's fine; everyone's got different tastes.

What are your thoughts about mooks, and have you used them in your games? If so, why?

i love using mooks. mainly because the style of gaming i like is what you don't -- i like the PCs being super-cool larger-than-life characters who can mow through hordes of faceless opponents with a sense of invincibility. sure it's power-tripping, but it's how i have fun!

one of the main reasons i game is for stress relief. grim-n-gritty games where you have to carefully plan tactics and any misstep is severely punished with serious injury or even death just isn't fun for me -- it's just more stress. that's why i enjoy more "cinematic" style games.

 

[Blue_Kryptonite]

Just watch Return of the King. Orcs=Mooks in the large battles.

 

[Wormwood]

Just watch Return of the King. Orcs=Mooks in the large battles.

Unfortunately, nobody told Boromir or Faramir.

The players in my Silver Marches game used to look at standard (War1) Orcs as mooks, a fallacy I encouraged.

So when the overconfident 7th level PCs decided to take on an entire village of 75 so-called mooks---well, let's just say that the 'mook' meme quickly flew out the window. Not a TPK, but close enough make this DM's night.

 

[Agback]

For me, this takes a lot of fun out of playing, if I know that my character is nigh invulnerable and can mow through hordes of "lesser beings". I think the GM was trying to go for a "heroic" feel to his game, but IMO heroes are not heroic because they can kill hordes of enemies, but for their actions and beliefs.

I'm with you. A hero is a hero because he does hard stuff, not because he does easy stuff. So making something that would be hard in reality easy in the game makes the game less heroic, not more.

Mooks are from Chinese (Hong Kong) cinema, and there they work because the heroes do impressive-looking flashy stuff to deal with them. It doesn't look like a slugger beating up on a lot of teenagers, although the results are the same. But RPGs don't have the advantage of the visuals.

So my impression of 'mook rules' is they work to exactly the extent that they remind fans of kung fu movies of kung fu movies, and no further.

The first 'mook rule' of which I was aware was the AD&D rule that allowed a fighter to get one attack per level per round against foes of less than one hit die.

The first explicit mook rule of which I became aware was that in Bushido, which had 'extras' who went down with one hit, any hit.

The first time I ran across a mook rule so called was in Feng Shui, where my character turned out to be better against named characters than against mooks. (He did a lot of damage with each hit, which is no advantage against mooks. But he was not very accurate, and in Feng Shui mooks are harder to hit )

Regards,


Agback

 

[kigmatzomat]

I have played in a couple of short games recently where the GMs were very fond of using "mooks". From what I can understand of it, it entails the PCs being virtual supermen in a world of incompetent featherweight pushovers (much like the main characters in Star Wars vs. Stormtroopers).

Well it really depends on level. At 10th level you really do walk through townsfolk like chaffe. Even a 10th level wizard is a match for most guardsmen in melee combat. A naked epic character armed with a sizeable stick can take out dozens of typical guardsmen.

Let's face it, DnD is not a game where everyone faces instant death from an errant arrow or ricocheting bullets.