Okay people, a little wake up call.

[catsclaw227]

abbreviated, it looks like 4/2/4/4(1+10)/5(1+8) and 9 rituals for a total of 39 unique spells known including cantrips.

Thank you, bjorn2bwild.

So, peeling away the cantrips(so I don't have to count 3e wizard's knowledge of every cantrip in the game), but leaving in rituals(because some of the spells 3e wizard takes may well be things that have become rituals), we get the 20th level 4e basic wizard with 35 spells known vs. the 3e basic wizard with 45.

I guess it is a meaningful decrease in options. Good to know.

Myself, I get option paralysis when I've got more than about 10 things to choose from(heck, sometimes I get it when I've got more than 1 thing to choose from), but I can recognize the desire to have exactly the right tool for every job.

Doesn't it make more sense to compare the number of spells that a 20th level 3.5 PC got to a 30th level 4e PC, not a 20-20 comparison?

bjorn2bwild, what would a 30th level wizard have at their disposal?

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

Thank you, bjorn2bwild.

So, peeling away the cantrips(so I don't have to count 3e wizard's knowledge of every cantrip in the game), but leaving in rituals(because some of the spells 3e wizard takes may well be things that have become rituals), we get the 20th level 4e basic wizard with 35 spells known vs. the 3e basic wizard with 45.

I guess it is a meaningful decrease in options. Good to know.

Myself, I get option paralysis when I've got more than about 10 things to choose from(heck, sometimes I get it when I've got more than 1 thing to choose from), but I can recognize the desire to have exactly the right tool for every job.

You are comparing level 20 in 4e vs. level 20 in 3.5e - This is wrong

Please remember that levels 1-30 in 4th edition are comparable to levels 1-20 in 3.5th, so you should compare level 30 in 4th edition to level 20 in 3.5, or level 20 in 4th to level 13 in 3.5

 

[DonTadow]

I can run the same campaign, with the same characters, and have the same outcome (generally speaking) in 1e, in 2e in 3e and in 4e. I can have all my NPCs. I can have my gnomes running around, i can have all the events in any campaign in any edition, just because the rules are different doesnt mean anything. For god sakes people, its a game of imagination, OMG OMG OMG ITS ALL COMBAT. Im glad they gave robust rules for combat. Hell they even gave us rules for non combat encounters. Skill challenges anyone?

Oh no they dont have this spell or this one or this in there. MAKE IT UP !!!!! STOP RELYING ON EVERYTHING TO BE SPELLED OUT FOR YOU. Geeze.

I promise all of you will will be okay with 4th edition.

Brilliant, advice. Why even have a rule book for anything, lets just make it up as we go.

A comprehnsive rule set makes a game. It's good to make things up, and most of the fixes in 4e have already been houseruled eslewhere, the problem with 4e is the non-fix stuff to create more product down the line. Whereas i got a book with complete set of races and classes before, now wotc has given you half of this book and half of that book to sell you the other half later.

 

[Xyl]

Unfortunately, this does require writing rules that explicitly call for DM judgement, and 4E seems to be allergic to that. From what I can see, the 4E approach is, "If we can't figure out a way to make a rule that's absolutely crystal clear, we don't make one at all." Which is not a bad way to go--certainly it has led them to clarify a lot of things that were impossibly vague in previous editions, like what you can and can't get someone to do under the influence of charm person. (God, the arguments I've had over that...) But it does limit them in some respects, and this is one of them.

Actually, the 4e system doesn't seem all that much different to me. The DMG does have a paragraph about how the DM's common sense can and should trump the rules as written. It also has quite a bit of material on how to "make stuff up" without breaking the game. The difference, if there is one, is that the rules that call for DM judgement are all in the DMG and not the PHB.

 

[Dausuul]

Actually, the 4e system doesn't seem all that much different to me. The DMG does have a paragraph about how the DM's common sense can and should trump the rules as written. It also has quite a bit of material on how to "make stuff up" without breaking the game. The difference, if there is one, is that the rules that call for DM judgement are all in the DMG and not the PHB.

But are there actual rules that call for DM judgement? Or merely a set of guidelines for DM tinkering, house-ruling, and world-building? My impression is that there is a very rigid segregation between "rules text" and "DM judgement," such that the rules never actually demand that the DM make a judgement call.

 

[Xyl]

But are there actual rules that call for DM judgement? Or merely a set of guidelines for DM tinkering, house-ruling, and world-building? My impression is that there is a very rigid segregation between "rules text" and "DM judgement," such that the rules never actually demand that the DM make a judgement call.

What about skill challenges? There's also an entire section on how to handle player actions that aren't specifically covered by the rules. The example given is a character swinging on a chandelier to kick a bugbear into a burning brazier.

Basically, all the rules which call for DM judgement have been condensed into a few general systems. They're broad enough that it seems like you should be able to use them for almost anything you need to, but they have enough crunch that you should never have to pull a number out of thin air.

If that's not enough, there is also a set of guidelines for DM tinkering, house-ruling, and world-building, including an actual section on how to make a good house rule.

 

[Halivar]

That's not what I pay them for. In fact, I pay them specifically so I don't have to "make things up".

I was under the impression that I payed them to tell me how to make stuff up. In fact, the whole game is ABOUT making stuff up. If you can't make stuff up, methinks your ability to DM will be severely hampered.

I see from your join date that you're a 2008'er, so you do get cut some slack for an argument that has long been meaningless.

I think it was sensible advice. Being a member of a forum for 5+ years doesn't grant you the "wisdom of the ages," and you can still learn something from everyone.

 

[Henry]

I see from your join date that you're a 2008'er, so you do get cut some slack for an argument that has long been meaningless.

Actually, no one should have to justify themselves just because their account is newer. Let's be a little more respectful of each other, please?

 

[Henry]

I was under the impression that I payed them to tell me how to make stuff up. In fact, the whole game is ABOUT making stuff up. If you can't make stuff up, methinks your ability to DM will be severely hampered.

This is true, but I can see Arnwyn's point, too -- there's a difference between having to make something up to fill in the gaps, and making something up to REPLACE whole systems that don't work for you. In one, they just aren't there yet -- whether you make it up, or WotC or third party does later, it's not immediately bad rules. On the other hand, if a rule (like Grappling, more on that in a minute) has problems that splat books only keep making worse, then it's something that takes a lot more work to fix in your games.

Case in point: We have one player who made a PC built solely to Grapple. He took fighter feats, complete warrior grappling feats, he maxxed out the reaping mauler prestige class, etc. If he drops his Greataxe and starts grappling, the DM is actually inclined to just let him WIN the GRAPPLE, because to resolve one of his grapples takes longer than anyone else's round in combat. You have to deal with op-attacks (he GETS op-attacks when a creature tried to improved grab him), the grapple checks (multiple ones, because a grapple is an attack action and he has three in a round), then several other conditions which I can't remember...

We were quite proud of him last game, when he choked a Wizard EIGHT levels higher than us to death in 3 rounds, but other than that, it's a pain in the rear to watch him go through the motions. He's an excellent player, but all the stipulations built up through time to grappling through classes and feats make it a royal pain to track.

 

[Arnwyn]

I was under the impression that I payed them to tell me how to make stuff up.

*shrug* Maybe for you. Not sure how that applies to others.

In fact, the whole game is ABOUT making stuff up. If you can't make stuff up, methinks your ability to DM will be severely hampered.

I'm also not sure how "can't" entered the equation here. But that rather wide brush-painting has little to do with my statement.