[Old Debate] Is the caster level of items a prerequisite?

[Artoomis]

This is listed under the entery of "Caster level".

This entery is talking only and spasificly about what lvl an Item is for resisting Despel Magics.
What "the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level" mean here is that, when a player makes a item the CL for dispel magic is the creators Caster lvl at the time of creation.

Dont take this out of context as it does not refer to "Prerequisites" which is lested spasificly below the "Caster Level" entery and spasificaly states that the prerequisites immediately following the CL.

Wow!

The full quote:

• Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).
• Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

Note that Prerequisites are indeed seperate from Caster Level. No argument there. Of course, that in NO WAY means you do not have to be at least the level of "Caster Level." It pretty damn torturious interpretation to think that you could create an item at, say, 3rd level and yet have it be 17th "Caster Level" for Dispel Magic and the like (I think a first level Pearl of Power could fall into that category).

No, the rules are pretty clear as written - Caster Level is a minimum EXCEPT for potions, scrolls, and wands, which have their own rule.

The "certain requirements" that to be met are pretty clearly those other than Caster Level, which was addressed as being a requirement in the previous paragraph.

 

[melkoriii]

Wow!


Note that Prerequisites are indeed seperate from Caster Level. No argument there. Of course, that in NO WAY means you do not have to be at least the level of "Caster Level." It pretty damn torturious interpretation to think that you could create an item at, say, 3rd level and yet have it be 17th "Caster Level" for Dispel Magic and the like (I think a first level Pearl of Power could fall into that category).

I never said that anything like that.

What I said was that IF you meet the Prerequisites (CL for the Spells needed/ lvl needed for +x for swords/armor, Feats/skills) then the items CL is set at your level.

The ones listed int eh DMG are for FOUND items as loot.

If a Wiz lvl 3 makes a Pearl of Power lvl 1 then the CL for Dispel Magic is CL 3.

From SRD

Pearl of Power: This seemingly normal pearl of average size and luster is a potent aid to all spellcasters who prepare spells (clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and wizards). Once per day on command, a pearl of power enables the possessor to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast. The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast. The spell must be of a particular level, depending on the pearl. Different pearls exist for recalling one spell per day of each level from 1st through 9th and for the recall of two spells per day (each of a different level, 6th or lower).
Strong transmutation; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled; Price 1,000 gp (1st), 4,000 gp (2nd), 9,000 gp (3rd), 16,000 gp (4th), 25,000 gp (5th), 36,000 gp (6th), 49,000 gp (7th), 64,000 gp (8th), 81,000 gp (9th), or 70,000 gp (two spells).

So your saying that to make a Pearl of Power lvl 1, you must be a Caster Level 17!?

No that is the CL if the items is found in loot.

Why else would they say "creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled" when a Caster lvl 17 can cast lvl 9 spell? There would be NO reason to have that stament since a Wiz lvl 17 can cast spells of any of those lvls.

 

[Caliban]

Wow!

The full quote:



Note that Prerequisites are indeed seperate from Caster Level. No argument there. Of course, that in NO WAY means you do not have to be at least the level of "Caster Level." It pretty damn torturious interpretation to think that you could create an item at, say, 3rd level and yet have it be 17th "Caster Level" for Dispel Magic and the like (I think a first level Pearl of Power could fall into that category).

No, the rules are pretty clear as written - Caster Level is a minimum EXCEPT for potions, scrolls, and wands, which have their own rule.

The "certain requirements" that to be met are pretty clearly those other than Caster Level, which was addressed as being a requirement in the previous paragraph.

Except that caster level listed in the DMG is just supposed to be the default caster level for found items, not the caster level for every example of that item.

Theoretically (given what the various game designers have said) you could choose to make the various weapon abilities, wondrous items, rods, etc. at a lower caster level than listed in the DMG, which would reduce the potency of some items (namely ones that duplicate spell effects with level dependent attributes), and recalculate the cost based on the new caster level (for those items where it actually affects the cost).

Thus, a Pearl of Power created by a 3rd level caster would only have a caster level of 3, and could easily be temporarily dispelled.

In practice, that's just a big pain in the butt and a lot of DM's (including the various RPGA campaign administrators) have ruled that the default caster level is the only caster level for the item. That way you don't have to worry about wether or not changing the caster level will affect the cost of the item.

You can find passages in the DMG to support either ruling, as others have shown.

 

[Artoomis]

...You can find passages in the DMG to support either ruling, as others have shown.

Well, maybe, but you have to do some very, very odd reading to support what the designers state was the intent.

The rules are very clear. It is also clear that the designers did not means the rules to be written that way. And yet, no errata. Still. Not even after 3.5 came out.

So the "official" ruling can only that that for items other than those listed (potions, et.al.) Caster Level is Caster Level. Period.

The "unofficial" ruling from designers is that Caster Level is just for found items, and you need to calculate Caster Level off the other prerequisites.

The "official" method is much easier as you stated.

There are very good non-rule-based arguments on why either method is the "correct" one, but, if you want the "official" method, it is still the one in the MDG - Caster Level is the minimum caster level to make that particular item.

 

[Artoomis]

I never said that anything like that.

What I said was that IF you meet the Prerequisites (CL for the Spells needed/ lvl needed for +x for swords/armor, Feats/skills) then the items CL is set at your level.

The ones listed int eh DMG are for FOUND items as loot.

Well, that's NOT what you stated earlier.

So your saying that to make a Pearl of Power lvl 1, you must be a Caster Level 17!?

No that is the CL if the items is found in loot.

Why else would they say "creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled" when a Caster lvl 17 can cast lvl 9 spell? There would be NO reason to have that stament since a Wiz lvl 17 can cast spells of any of those lvls.

1. By the rules, yes, you must be CL 17 to create a 1st level Pearl of Power.

2. A wiz 17 might not be able to cast spells of a particualar level depending upon his intelligence. While is would be unusual, a CL 17 could have a INT of 14 for any number of reasons and thus be limited to 4th level spells, for example. This is different from other items where you could use a scroll or something to get the spell to use, even if you could not cast it yourself normally.

 

[melkoriii]

Well, that's NOT what you stated earlier.

Where did I say that?

1. By the rules, yes, you must be CL 17 to create a 1st level Pearl of Power.

NO as I showed you caster lvl is NOT part of teh prerequs

2. A wiz 17 might not be able to cast spells of a particualar level depending upon his intelligence. While is would be unusual, a CL 17 could have a INT of 14 for any number of reasons and thus be limited to 4th level spells, for example. This is different from other items where you could use a scroll or something to get the spell to use, even if you could not cast it yourself normally.

He could cast it from a scroll or a Wond or have someone else cast it.

You have not disproved how the rules read.

Back up you words with the rules as I have.

else there is no point continuing this conversation.

 

[Stalker0]

By the book, while caster level is not actually a prereq, it prescence mandates that you have a certain caster level to create certain items.

For example, a person with the mobility feat must have had a 13 dex at least some point in the character's life, for in order to have mobility you have to have dodge which requires a 13 dex. Mobility doesn't require a 13 dex as a prereq, yet it becomes one none the less.

That being said, I think based on what most authors have said, it wasn't intended this way. And I think not getting pearls of power and the like until 17th level is absurd.

As for the rods, I feel the metamagic rods are one of the few things that make that feat worth taking. Some of the other rods are neat, but I'm not spending a feat slot just to make one expensive rod.

So take it as you will.

 

[Alzrius]

The whole drawn out story: www.superdan.net/dndfaq2.html
(Note Appendix at bottom linking to more recent updates.)

I just wanted to say thanks for posting the link to that article. I was someone who believed what Monte and Shawn said, that CL should not be a prereq. But after reading that article, I find myself having done a complete 180.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What I said was that IF you meet the Prerequisites (CL for the Spells needed/ lvl needed for +x for swords/armor, Feats/skills) then the items CL is set at your level.

Um... then what is the meaning of "The caster level is determined by the item itself"?

If the caster level that is determined by the item itself is the level of the creator, and the creator must have at least the caster level of the caster level of the item, then that means that the creator must have a caster level at least equal to the caster level of the creator... which, while always true, is a major waste of two sentences.

"The caster level is determined by the item itself" means that the caster level of a Pearl of Power is 17 - determined by the item, not the creator.

"The creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level" means that the creator of a Pearl of Power must be at least level 17, since the caster level (for anything but a potion, scroll, wand, or staff) is determined by the item, not the creator.

He could cast it from a scroll or a Wand or have someone else cast it.

Scroll or wand doesn't work, in this case. It's not "Prerequisite: cure light wounds", which can be supplied by activating an item. It's "Prerequisite: ability to cast...", which activating an item doesn't supply. Otherwise someone could use a Wand of Enervation to qualify for a prestige class with the requirement "Ability to cast 4th level arcane spells".

They could (arguably) get someone else who could cast spells of the required level to cooperate in the construction. And as long as at least one of them has a caster level of 17, that works just fine.

I like Monte Cook's 3.5 answer the best. "Yes, that's what the book says..." (because it is) "... but it's not what we meant."

Which gives people a House Rule with the Designers' Seal of Approval, if they choose to implement it.

I don't like the answers that say "That's not what the book says", because those answers are incorrect.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

Um... then what is the meaning of "The caster level is determined by the item itself"?

I've always read that to mean "The caster level is determined by the minimum level to cast the spells required to create the item, or by the minimum level to create the items effect"

Thus if the item required fireball, the minimum caster level is 5. If the item generates a 10HD fireball effect, then the minimum caster level is 10, etc.

Of course, my interpretation of it may be colored by my knowledge of the designers intent.

Still, I have ruled in my home game that the caster level is a prerequisite, except for certain specific items like the Pearl of Power. In that case I ruled that the caster level in the DMG is a typo, and it should have a different caster level for each type of pearl. It just makes things less complicated overall, and limits the level at which certain items can enter the game (outside of the ones I plan on being there.)