D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Argyle King

Legend
Something I sometimes struggle with is trying to make sense of having both Orcs and Hobgoblins.

The differences in D&D tend to boil down to "chaotic evil" green-skinned guys versus "lawful evil" greenish-skinned guys.

In a setting where there's more nuance and some orcs can be "civilized," I'm not sure where exactly that places hobgoblins.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

HJFudge

Explorer
1. Nobody argued that.
2. Rather than morally wrong I'd argue that the 5e take on gnolls is boring, and an unnecessary change from when gnolls used to be officially playable. They could have gone with a new type of undead or fiend if they wanted to use the "big demon spawns little demons by eating" concept (which IMO would have made more sense for the concept rather than using humanoids).

1. Ya'll keep saying that 'nobody is arguing that' but we have a lot of posters saying 'these types of imagery are causing harm' and I think we can all agree that harming others is morally wrong, no? So that is literally what you are arguing. This comes off as dishonest when you deny it. And, even if it is not your intent, there are more than a few of us who are telling you 'Yes, you ARE' and then the question becomes: If enough people feel that this is what you are doing, does what you are intending to do matter?

2. It 100% is boring to have monocultures...but a 'generic enemy you can just kill' does serve a good purpose. That can be put into the game via bandits or, how I do it, is I have a group called the Warped which is basically any living race, sentient or not, that has been overexposed to magic that warps them into mindless killing machines. So Warped can be any race, any species, anyONE really. Bandits are...well, they are also boring to me for reasons that aren't relevant to the discussion.

Also its a bit odd how mind-flayers seem to be okay, you hand-wave any arguments against this without addressing the issue. They do not resemble humans enough? I don't think orcs resemble humans enough and it strikes me as...well, it strikes me as a bit odd how one can read about big tusked, green skinned creatures who kill and eat people and think 'minority race' but okay. I recognize that I am not the sole judge of how a thing looks...the problem is you are acting as if you are the sole judge.

Mind-flayers are interesting. I mean, gotta eat to live right? Is doing what one needs to exist evil? Maybe they only eat the 'bad sentient brains' or what have you. LOTS of different ways to do it that wouldn't paste them as entirely evil as they are portrayed in the books.

I think one of the reasons questions like this are so hard to answer (and you really can't handwave it away, it is a serious consideration that must be made) is because evil and good as concepts are very weak ones. I don't like alignment for that reason and I ignore it in my games entirely. But I am not asking the default to be catered to my tastes and implying that anyone who continues with the default is immoral (or propping up systemic immorality?).

Making the default lore to never cause harm to others (harm as loosely defined by those arguing that having orcs all be bad in the default lore does) is a sisyphean task. It is not going to ever be accomplished. We can't even pin them down on an endstate. When will it be finished? When will the books be morally clean and free from sin? Ask 10 of them you'll get 10 different answers. Or one semi-vague, inconsistent answer that changes a bit moment to moment.

The best way, the ONLY real way to make sure everyone at the table is comfortable is for the individual DMs and GMs to take the needs wants and desires of their players and run their game world accordingly.

I get the desire to make changes in the world for the better. But all these changes? There will be no effect. The time it takes ya'll to argue with us about this, ya'll could be writing your congressperson to end the war on drugs, something that will actually help the people you profess to care about. But thats not as sexy nor does it feel as good to take a noble stand against the injustice of how orcs are portrayed.

BUT seriously, do write them. It takes 5 minutes. Way less time than it takes to post here. I did.
 



Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
Something I sometimes struggle with is trying to make sense of having both Orcs and Hobgoblins.

The differences in D&D tend to boil down to "chaotic evil" green-skinned guys versus "lawful evil" greenish-skinned guys.

In a setting where there's more nuance and some orcs can be "civilized," I'm not sure where exactly that places hobgoblins.
Societal structure. (Also, minor nitpick, but orcs in 5e are dark grey, and hobgoblins are pinkish-grey.)

Hobgoblins are goblinoids, which is an important part of their identity. There are the 3 base goblinoids; goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears. I've always seen hobgoblins as the most "human" of the base goblinoid races. Their noses are more normal, their ears are less pointed, their teeth are cleaner, they're closer in height and weight to humans than goblins and bugbears. They're the most disciplined of the goblinoid races, the ones that keep things together. Bugbears are too hot-headed to lead the goblinoids, and goblins are too physically weak and small.

Going off of the base races' cultures, orcs are tribal warriors (barbarians) while hobgoblins are organized, Roman-ish warriors (fighters). This is even true in Eberron and Exandria. They both have a place in the same world. Hobgoblins are allied with the rest of the goblinoids, and orcs are more loners and individualists that will occasionally team up with ogres and humans when it serves their needs, but don't have longstanding relationships with them.

(Scro are a different matter. They're basically space hobgoblins that look like orcs.)
 

Scribe

Legend
Nothing much... except for the misrepresentation of mental illness that supports current stigmas...
That was in the context of slavery and unsavory behavior associated with it.

If we are calling for various lineages to be full on deleted, that's a bit more extreme than some retcons.

GWs Fimir for example, could stand to be deleted, and are mostly forgotten now.

If you feel Derro are just as bad in the current representation, fair enough. I don't.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
1. Ya'll keep saying that 'nobody is arguing that' but we have a lot of posters saying 'these types of imagery are causing harm' and I think we can all agree that harming others is morally wrong, no? So that is literally what you are arguing. This comes off as dishonest when you deny it. And, even if it is not your intent, there are more than a few of us who are telling you 'Yes, you ARE' and then the question becomes: If enough people feel that this is what you are doing, does what you are intending to do matter?
Look, what you do at your table is between you and your players. We’re talking about the default presentation in the official rules.

2. It 100% is boring to have monocultures...but a 'generic enemy you can just kill' does serve a good purpose. That can be put into the game via bandits or, how I do it, is I have a group called the Warped which is basically any living race, sentient or not, that has been overexposed to magic that warps them into mindless killing machines. So Warped can be any race, any species, anyONE really. Bandits are...well, they are also boring to me for reasons that aren't relevant to the discussion.
Your Warped thing sounds awesome. Great example of how to have kill on sight enemies without needing to have always-evil races.
Also its a bit odd how mind-flayers seem to be okay, you hand-wave any arguments against this without addressing the issue. They do not resemble humans enough? I don't think orcs resemble humans enough and it strikes me as...well, it strikes me as a bit odd how one can read about big tusked, green skinned creatures who kill and eat people and think 'minority race' but okay. I recognize that I am not the sole judge of how a thing looks...the problem is you are acting as if you are the sole judge.
These things can really only be arrived at by community consensus. Currently, there is a widespread outcry against the depiction of always-evil humanoid races, and not against mind-flayers. Maybe some day that will change? It’s an ongoing conversation. For now, let’s tackle the problems there are widespread agreement about rather than worrying about hypothetical future problems.
Making the default lore to never cause harm to others (harm as loosely defined by those arguing that having orcs all be bad in the default lore does) is a sisyphean task. It is not going to ever be accomplished. We can't even pin them down on an endstate. When will it be finished? When will the books be morally clean and free from sin? Ask 10 of them you'll get 10 different answers. Or one semi-vague, inconsistent answer that changes a bit moment to moment.
Let’s not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
The best way, the ONLY real way to make sure everyone at the table is comfortable is for the individual DMs and GMs to take the needs wants and desires of their players and run their game world accordingly.
Obviously. And that should continue to happen. But if the default is putting people off the game, it should be changed.
I get the desire to make changes in the world for the better. But all these changes? There will be no effect. The time it takes ya'll to argue with us about this, ya'll could be writing your congressperson to end the war on drugs, something that will actually help the people you profess to care about. But thats not as sexy nor does it feel as good to take a noble stand against the injustice of how orcs are portrayed.
🙄
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Because Eberron is more complex and challenging. And this may be frustrating to sophisticated gamers like us, but most people don't want complex and challenging in their light entertainment. They want accessible and straightforward. They want snooty elves and ale-swilling dwarves.

So, WotC seems to be headed in the general direction of decoupling race from culture at least somewhat. They seem to have been asking relevant numbers of gamers what they want, through UA and the like. But... we here know what gamers want better than they do?
 

HJFudge

Explorer
Your Warped thing sounds awesome. Great example of how to have kill on sight enemies without needing to have always-evil races.

This has solved SO many issues. It also acts as a great plot hook! One day, the NPC they've grown attached to begins to exhibit...symptoms.

There are some morally/ethically questionable methods they might try to stop these symptoms becoming worse. Does the party do it? That, to me, is a VERY interesting question and I very much like to put my players into those sort of situations. I have to be very careful not to bake any judgment of 'right' or 'wrong' into the plot. The interesting bit is to see how the characters (and the players!) come to the decision. If I presented one way as the 'right' way and one way as the 'wrong' way then that would spoil the show.
 

HJFudge

Explorer
Also, I want to make very clear that the answers/solutions to this stuff, I am making a BEST GUESS at.

I recognize that I can come off sometimes as preachy, but lets be honest here one with another: I dont know. I dont know what they correct answer is to MOST of the questions that are posed here. I am PRETTY SURE of my positions but I am not 100%.

I might very well be totally off base and wrong. Do I think I am? No I do not but I recognize that I have been wrong before about things. I will be wrong again.

So take that as an olive branch of sorts.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top