D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Warpiglet-7]

My college DM introduced me to honorable, Klingon-esque orcs 30 years ago. A lot of the recent WotC changes are things we've been doing for a long time now. Heck, I'm playing a lawful good hobgoblin in a campaign he's running with friends & family currently over Zoom.

But I'll never get rid of my old AD&D hardbacks... and sometimes my groups might even play them as-written (well, mostly!).

That’s really cool actually. I may just have to play a hobgoblin who follows a strict and goodly warrior code. Maybe a Paladin or samurai

 

[Minigiant]

What scrubbing? Yes, they made an open statement (as there are a lot of folks who actually think they as the Imperium are the good guys at the table!) but scrubbing? Nah. The lore is the lore.

They wont talk about Pygmies. Araby is hush. Savage Orcs and Forest Goblins were made less African and Native American.

Iwant to see how what they allow CA to do with Cathay and Hung.

Fantasy wasnt killed because it was untenable as a setting (outside of copyright lol) but because of as you say utter failure by Management to market it appropriately.

And that poor marketing wasdue to laziness. They just painted races with stereotypes of real nations. And since they only focused on Empire Dwarves, and HE as heroes, most of the paint went on villians.

 

[Scribe]

Yeah, the statement of intent was something different for something different, but the reflexive nature of people against change works, because that's kind of what we're talking about. Like, people don't think bad Roma stereotypes are a problem if you keep including the Vistani in things. And then when you finally say "Yeah, this is problematic", people are up in arms because you let it go for so long.

(minor rant that is off topic inc)

And yeah, I get you. If one is told 'this is fine' over a long period of time, and then is told by the provider that thing 'Actually this is bad, and everyone should have known it.' People will react.

That is NOT the issue with GW, in 40K Lore or Fantasy, in regards to the Open Statement.

The issue with 40K specifically, is that it literally is a Fascist Dystopia. Its over the top terrible to HUMANITY. It is genocidal to SPACE ALIENS. There is absolutely ZERO argument that the setting is racist or sexist, or anything of the sort, because the Imperium operates on a scale WAY beyond that level of cruelty.

The problem, is that well, GW allowed folks who didnt understand the lore, didnt understand the setting, to think that the Imperium (and Space Marines) are 'good guys'. You then had folks push ACTUAL racist and fascist/nazi stuff, under the guise of 'Its just how the Imperium has to operate.' which is false or again misses the point of the Imperium as a satirical commentary on humanity and well, 80's and 90's Britain.

They wont talk about Pygmies. Araby is hush. Savage Orcs and Forest Goblins were made less African and Native American.

Iwant to see how what they allow CA to do with Cathay and Hung.

Ah this! OK. Well Pygmies, yeah there's no way that needs to exist. Araby I have my own theory on (that we dont need to go into here) while Savage Orcs? Uhh...have you seen the most recent set for Underworlds? They didnt do much to clean that up at all (and Forest Goblins are just old world stuff at this point, forgotten...)

Cathay will be interesting. I was really really against it, but they seem to think they can pull it off.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Nick Cole responses to upcoming Wired article which hints that DnD fans are racists. Nice Cole is author. His books are Ctrl Alt Revolt, Soda Pop Soldier: A novel #1. Kind of cyberpunk.
Both people wander all over the subject. IT is about 41 minutes long.

I only got in about 9:30 minutes, but their discussion really bothers me for a fundamental reason.

They start reading the article and get to the point where the article says "The player character's distrust of a player who was playing a tiefling" This is a 2:30 in the video. They then spent the next 7 minutes talking about how the game portrays tieflings, how the professor has too much time on his hands if he is studying DnD, and how coming up from adversity is the heroes journey and does this professor expect the tielfing to be showered in wealth and all that.

And, all I'm thinking the entire time is "none of that matters. The professor was observing how the fellow players treated the tiefling with distrust, not how the game world was designed to portray tieflings."

I'm not saying the professor is right or wrong, I only got to hear the first two sentences, I don't even know how he reached his conclusion, but if you start attacking his position for how the setting portrays tieflings, when the professor was observing player behavior, I think you aren't really engaging with his process and just with what you feel is his attack on the game.

 

[Justice and Rule]

(minor rant that is off topic inc)

And yeah, I get you. If one is told 'this is fine' over a long period of time, and then is told by the provider that thing 'Actually this is bad, and everyone should have known it.' People will react.

That is NOT the issue with GW, in 40K Lore or Fantasy, in regards to the Open Statement.

The issue with 40K specifically, is that it literally is a Fascist Dystopia. Its over the top terrible to HUMANITY. It is genocidal to SPACE ALIENS. There is absolutely ZERO argument that the setting is racist or sexist, or anything of the sort, because the Imperium operates on a scale WAY beyond that level of cruelty.

The problem, is that well, GW allowed folks who didnt understand the lore, didnt understand the setting, to think that the Imperium (and Space Marines) are 'good guys'. You then had folks push ACTUAL racist and fascist/nazi stuff, under the guise of 'Its just how the Imperium has to operate.' which is false or again misses the point of the Imperium as a satirical commentary on humanity and well, 80's and 90's Britain.

Yeah, my apologies. My comment was largely made about the transition between the two lines and I didn't register the Open Statement line in there. My bad for missing it.

Edit: naughty word me, that was last June?! I had it mentally stored in "2018, maybe 2019."

 

[MGibster]

I adapted the original Castle Ravenloft module for Deadlands. For those that might not know, Deadlands is set in the American west in the 1870s with all the usual tropes that comes with it plus magic. It's the type of game were a Samurai, a Baptist preacher with holy powers, a gun fighter, a mad scientist with a flame thrower, and a muckraker news reporter can form a viable party.

So in my adaptation, Strahd got a hold of a bunch of dime novels about the American west and decided he wanted to see what it was like for himself. So he had Castle Ravenloft shipped to American brick-by-brick, set up in Cripple Creek, Colorado, and invited adventurers to come slay him. The Vistani didn't really fit the old west vibe so I replaced them with Native Americans. But Strahd learned everything he knew about Native Americans from dime novels and he expected them to act in a stereotypical manner and he paid well enough that he got what he wanted.

Except some of the Native Americans were tired of Strahd's antics coming to realize he wasn't some eccentric European lord he was an evil man. So they went ahead and broke character to tell the PCs how they could kill Strahd. It was a lot of fun. My favorite part is Strahd challenging the gunslinger to a duel and when shot shouting out in my best faux Eastern European accept, "You got me, pard'ner!"

 

[Scribe]

Yeah, my apologies. My comment was largely made about the transition between the two lines and I didn't register the Open Statement line in there. My bad for missing it.

Edit: naughty word me, that was last June?! I had it mentally stored in "2018, maybe 2019."

Hah yeah, it was during all the unrest. I thought to myself 'damn, I sure hope we dont see any deep looking at GW, they are pretty bad at social media' but they handled it about as well as I could have expected.

 

[Minigiant]

Ah this! OK. Well Pygmies, yeah there's no way that needs to exist. Araby I have my own theory on (that we dont need to go into here) while Savage Orcs? Uhh...have you seen the most recent set for Underworlds? They didnt do much to clean that up at all (and Forest Goblins are just old world stuff at this point, forgotten...)

Cathay will be interesting. I was really really against it, but they seem to think they can pull it off.

What do you mean... oh oh oh damn. Well Iguess there's less to go with since they killed normal orcs orruks.

But it all came down to laziness selling backin the day and not as much now. They let it go on so long that the fanbase thought it was okay and that they didn'trealize it was stalling business. 40k still worked because it's humans were cooler and you didn't need a bajillion models for a human army.

A huge part of 5e's success is the expansion of the base. It's one of the time where "Those fans don't exist" got slapped down.

(Cathay was one of there only options left. There areonly 2Order factions in that direction of the map)

 

[Haffrung]

No, you are misunderstanding two points.

First off, you can't compare this to the Satanic Panic of the 80's because that was ridiculous not because of the idea that D&D could influence you, but that people thought it could allow you to do impossible things: cast spells, summon demons, etc. That was part of why it's not comparable to what is being talked about.

That's a narrow characterization of the moral panic around D&D in the 80s. It wasn't just (or even mostly) about spells and religious faith. For a great many teachers and parents, depictions of demons and monsters being slain with swords was mindless and lurid violence that would rot kids' minds. I lived in a not very religious part of the world, and at the same time that parents and teachers were cracking down on D&D, they were also suppressing Iron Maiden t-shirts and Conan comics. It wasn't just religious conservatives. Educators and child welfare advocates thought this stuff was unhealthy for young minds and degraded culture.

 

[HJFudge]

I mean, I just cited studies to you that show that completely happens with things like video games. It's a well-known phenomenon.

No, you just cited a study which I quoted but will quote AGAIN: "This study examined adolescents' attitudes about video games along with their self-reported play frequency."

It is literally the first line in the abstract.

I mean, no. If this were true, you could actually provide studies that show people aren't influenced by media or pop culture or video games.

Can't prove a negative really, but I can provide an article that shows that there is disagreement in the academic community.

Understanding Why Scholars Hold Different Views on the Influences of Video Games on Public Health

Abstract. Despite decades of research, no scholarly consensus has been achieved regarding the potential impact of video games on youth aggression or other

academic.oup.com

Is this a be-all end-all? No of course not. There are differing opinions. Note the word: opinions. To present it as case closed, this is the same as evolutionary theory/gravity is a biiiiit disingenuous.

Another study that casts doubt on your claim:

The Good, The Bad and the Ugly: A Meta-analytic Review of Positive and Negative Effects of Violent Video Games - Psychiatric Quarterly

Objective Video game violence has become a highly politicized issue for scientists and the general public. There is continuing concern that playing violent video games may increase the risk of aggression in players. Less often discussed is the possibility that playing violent video games may...

link.springer.com

But in the case of influencing things like sexism and stuff? Yes. It's like video games. We have tons of actual data on this that you're just ignoring without presenting any alternative evidence beyond your own feelings.

Interesting, since you have yet to supply this data? I know you think you have. But...a single link to a single article which is a survey does not a solid case make. Keep in mind, this is not a scholarly journal. I do not EXEPCT scholarly research from anyone here, this is not the format for it.

Maybe I will one day hear an argument and be convinced and go 'Oh no, I was wrong!' This happens, believe it or not, time to time. Of course, this argument has to be a bit better than 'of course it is duh theres tons of evidence out there it is well known!' because, well, that is the same argument that has been used to promote fallacious and erroneous thinking since time began.

Can D&D influence how people view gender and race? Yes, because D&D is a game that deals with all those: it's a game about history and society. It depicts gender, people, cultures, the whole shebang. Of course it would influence how people might view that stuff.

I guess it CAN, strictly speaking, but DOES it? Again: Which person has experienced harm because orcs were portrayed as always evil? You talk a lot about video games and provide links to a (single) study (survey) of (attitudes of adolescents towards) video games but video games are engaged with in different ways than table top games are.

Why would you assume the effects would be the same?

All this amounts to that you are taking a stance based on what you believe rather than what can be shown.

I mean this is fine, when it comes down to it. This aint a scholarly journal, we are not scientists (maybe you are?). This is about opinions. But let us not pretend that this is such an open and shut case as you claim it to be.

Forgive me a bit of a hyperbolic example, but...they used to think the earth was flat. This was, as you say, well documented and well known.

But let us go back to the Satanic Panic comparisons.

Except one is based purely on emotional and religious grounds, while the other is actually based in psychological studies and science. The Satanic Panic doesn't work because it's entirely fueled by emotion. Could something influence you to second-guess church or that drugs might be alright? Absolutely. Was there any reason to this D&D would do that? No. That's the thing: there are things that D&D could influence you to do, like look up more fantasy fiction or get interested in magic or medieval history or creative fiction. D&D influences you!

I assure you there were psychological studies and science showing how D&D turned one to drugs/violence/antisocial behavior. These were later proven to be erroneous...but that is how science works. It is constantly being updated, changing, proving and disproving.

Influencing you to go out and read a fantasy book is not the same thing as influencing you to go out and mistreat someone. Influencing someone to buy some dice is not the same as influencing someone to objectify women. I can be easily influenced to read more about a topic I find interesting. I have no...wall? resistance? to that. But cmon. Let us not act like that is the same thing as influencing someone to go out and treat others poorly.

You speak as if D&D is forcing hands. As if the people playing it have no choice but to become more and more okay with negative stereotypes towards real life people because of how the game deals with fake cultures/races.

Again though. Go and tell someone suffering from discrimination in the real world this: That WOTC taking out alignments/stats from a D&D book has improved their lives. That WOTC changing their lore to be more socially acceptable will help them.