D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[TheSword]

We’re on a journey going in the right direction. As long as we are going in that direction I’ll leave the decision about how fast we go to better minds than mine, like the designers.

 

[MGibster]

So, racism, sexism, and such - you'll find them here, like you'll find them anywhere. The question for each of us is whether we dismissively wave it away, or whether we look at it and work to change that.

After moving to a remote area of Arkansas, I managed to locate a nearby gaming group that graciously invited me to participate in a game. They were using 1st edition rules (this was back in 2001) which didn't thrill me, but I decided to participate in the hopes of having a little fun and meeting new people. At some point during the game, one of the players, a black guy, exited the room and another player referred to him using a particularly hateful epitaph and none of the other players at the table batted an eye. Shortly thereafter I made my excuses, beat a hasty retreat, and never heard from them again. And, no, I didn't tell them why I was leaving so abruptly. I was in the home of what were essentially strangers surrounded by their friends who I did not know and decided a confrontation at that point wouldn't do me any good.

So you're right. There are bigoted jerks who happen to enjoy role playing games. I can't really comment on the video for two reasons. I haven't actually watched it and since I haven't read the article they're referencing I wouldn't be able to judge whether or not their comments about it were on point.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

D&D fans being racist because some ideas in game fiction are considered problematic makes as much sense as calling someone who eats pancakes racist because some people bought Aunt Jemima pancake mix.

bought past tense because the brand rightly realized what they were depicting and won’t continue with that imagery.

If you are bothered by something about the game, change it. But lumping everyone in with bad ideas because something in the game is offensive is...offensive.

push for some change if you are so driven but the whole guilt by association thing actually leads to resistance to good ideas.

 

[Oofta]

...
I'm sure I won't change any minds with this, but I'd like to say that in the roughly quarter century I've been a part of the gaming community, it's been one of the most inclusive, tolerant subcultures I've ever known. We're geeks, we're outcasts, we're the kind who take in fellow outcasts. . .we're not bigots.

I think this bears repeating. When I [was] running game days, everyone was welcome as long as they got along with others reasonably well. The externals of the person were ignored, they were embraced as a fellow gamer. Didn't matter who you were, new people were always welcome.

Gaming groups in my opinion have a great way of pulling people together from across the spectrum in ways you don't get with other activities.

 

[Alzrius]

This thread will not end well.

To quote Adam Driver: this is all gonna end badly (NSFW for language):

 

[beast013]

There are numerous races in D&D. To me, that means diversity exists in D&D. Regardless of the race, anyone can play their character as a horrid person. Embrace the diversity and play the game. Weed out the idiots as you go along.

 

[DEFCON 1]

We're geeks, we're outcasts, we're the kind who take in fellow outcasts. . .we're not bigots.

Don't ever ascribe traits to entire groups. That's always been the entire point of all of this.

Some of us geek and outcasts ARE bigots. And trying to deny that is just trying to absolve ourselves from any responsibility or looking inward. It's like saying "Oh, male geeks and outcasts could never get girlfriends, so if they did they'd been the most attentive and supportive boyfriends ever... they'd never sexually assault a woman!" Which we know for a fact ISN'T TRUE as well.

You can be a geek and an outcast and still be a piece of s***. Just like you can be the poster child for the traditional "popular cool male"... and actually be a good and stand-up guy (rather than the arrogant, obnoxious, toxic masculine we usually use that stereotype to prop up.)

Everyone is different. And sticking our heads in the sand about who we are isn't going to help. Instead, shine a light on ourselves and just see how dirty we actually are. And if we don't like what we see... try and change.

 

[Mistwell]

Well, yeah. I mean, not the Satanic part, but...

D&D is people. Lots of people. And, much as we may like to think otherwise, there's nothing about RPGs that selects against any of the bad traits of humanity.

So, racism, sexism, and such - you'll find them here, like you'll find them anywhere. The question for each of us is whether we dismissively wave it away, or whether we look at it and work to change that.

I haven't watched the video yet, but... a couple of older white men talking about racism? Not sure that's going to be relevatory.

Are you not an older white man who just talked about racism? Did you not just lecture about being dismissive, while...being dismissive?

Seriously, the excuses people use to not listen to potential dissent before dismissing that dissent is disappointing. If the color of their skin makes you think they cannot have an opinion worth listening to, maybe that's your issue and not theirs. If their age alone makes you think they cannot have an opinion worth listening to, maybe that's your issue and not theirs. Perhaps judging them on their color of their skin or age is not an admirable trait you should be using, in itself, as a means of declaring a human's opinions not worthy of consideration?

 

[Mannahnin]

People will take monsters that were taken from historic folklore, like orcs, and try to reinterpret them as some modern racial insult. People will complain that a game that has its roots in fantasy settings based on medieval Europe hasn't always reflected 21st century American norms of diversity.

Orcs are an interesting case. They don't exist in historic folklore. There are a couple of poetic references, to the best of my recollection, before Tolkien invented the species. In Beowulf, from which he drew the name, orcneas is just a generic reference to an evil spirit or wicked creature.

Tolkien himself wrestled with them, and whether it made sense in his worldbuilding for them to be irredeemable or innately evil. He went back and forth on it. Later he opined in letters that orcs are really something of a metaphor (though he usually didn't care for metaphor or allegory) for the cruel, debased and warlike side of mankind, and that "orcs" were to be found among the worst people on all sides of WWII, for example.

It's far too fashionable now to take something, call it some form of bigotry (racism, homophobia, sexism, transphobia), and raise a stink on social media all to drive likes/clicks/views. While bigotry is a very bad thing, there seems to be an active effort to try to find anything in a LOT of popular culture that can be called those things, and I think it's just for the social media likes/views/clicks etc.

Yes and no. I think there are some shallow and immature folks on social media who do indeed sometimes make mountains out of molehills. And that the nature of media is to amplify outraged and outrageous voices, especially as there are incentives for it. Advertising revenue and sharing/"engagement"/likes demand clicks. And sensationalism gets more clicks.

But I do think there are also plenty of people making a good-faith effort to understand and critically interrogate some stuff we've ignored or not thought hard about in the past. They're doing legitimate work to help society progress and make it more inclusive.

D&D definitely has some very colonialist concepts underpinning it, and some racist stereotypes have poked in here or there. Which makes sense. Human beings were responsible for writing it, and lots of humans have some pretty racist ideas. OTOH, the archetypal multiracial adventuring party also exemplifies different people from different backgrounds with different strengths and skills coming together to work in a good cause and fight evil. So D&D has some strong positive aspects as well.

I'm sure I won't change any minds with this, but I'd like to say that in the roughly quarter century I've been a part of the gaming community, it's been one of the most inclusive, tolerant subcultures I've ever known. We're geeks, we're outcasts, we're the kind who take in fellow outcasts. . .we're not bigots.

I've seen both in the... 30-odd years I've been playing and interacting with other gamers. Some ARE bigots. Many others deeply take to heart the messages of diversity and of unity and tolerance seen in major geek media like Star Trek and Lord of the Rings.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Don't ever ascribe traits to entire groups. That's always been the entire point of all of this.

Some of us geek and outcasts ARE bigots. And trying to deny that is just trying to absolve ourselves from any responsibility or looking inward. It's like saying "Oh, male geeks and outcasts could never get girlfriends, so if they did they'd been the most attentive and supportive boyfriends ever... they'd never sexually assault a woman!" Which we know for a fact ISN'T TRUE as well.

You can be a geek and an outcast and still be a piece of s***. Just like you can be the poster child for the traditional "popular cool male"... and actually be a good and stand-up guy (rather than the arrogant, obnoxious, toxic masculine we usually use that stereotype to prop up.)

Everyone is different. And sticking our heads in the sand about who we are isn't going to help. Instead, shine a light on ourselves and just see how dirty we actually are. And if we don't like what we see... try and change.

On a somewhat related note. Growing up I was a nerd. In the 80s. So yeah, I was subject to all the bullying, and made my own assumptions about jocks, preppies, etc. And made all the stereotypes about them.
My oldest stepson was a jock. And the most popular kid at school. totally opposite of me. Watching him grow up, and all the friends he hung out with, I realized that cliques? The kids are all the same, just different interests. There were just as many poor and abused kids on the football team as there were stoners or skaters. And there were just as many upper class kids who were preppies who were also part of the computer club. There were just as many kind and nice kids on the basketball team as there were in the yearbook class. The sooner we realize that we're all the same (every group has good and bad, and none of us is a better or worse group than the other), the better for everyone. We might get bullied by that jock, but we have no idea what their life is like at home. And before someone says nerds don't bully because we aren't physically strong enough, that's not true at all. Bullies will bully in ways in which they have power over another, any kind of power (not just physical strength), and geeks and nerds are no different.