D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[billd91]

Drow aren't in the 1E monster manual. And elves are described as having a range of colourings (wood elves are tan to brown), as are dwarves and gnomes. They were drawn as white in the earliest books (as are orcs, by the way) because it's very difficult to draw dark-skinned humanoids in black and white ink drawings.

Clearly, you do not actually have or have not consulted the 1e Monster Manual. Look it up. This conversation will wait.

 

[Sacrosanct]

The dark elves of folklore are primitive. They don't live in decadent cities, worship demons, torture slaves, and indulge in narcotics. Melniboneans do. Moorcock was a major influence on Gygax (it's always where the law/chaos thing came from). Drow are a synthesis of Norse folklore dark (earth) elves, and Melniboneans.

Gary said what the inspiration was. And they weren't from Melniboneans. That's your assumption. A false assumption since we literally have the answer from Gary himself. Repeating a false thing doesn't make it true. So you're going to have to provide a pretty compelling argument with a lot of evidence if you want me to take your word about where drow came from over the word of the guy who was the one who came up with them in the game.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Drow aren't in the 1E monster manual. And elves are described as having a range of colourings (wood elves are tan to brown), as are dwarves and gnomes. They were drawn as white in the earliest books (as are orcs, by the way) because it's very difficult to draw dark-skinned humanoids in black and white ink drawings.

Wrong. Again. From the 1E MM:

Drow: The “Black Elves,” or drow, are only legend. They purportedly
dwell deep beneath the surface in a strange subterranean realm. The
drow are said to be as dark as faeries are bright and as evil as the latter
are good. Tales picture them as weak fighters but strong magic-users

 

[Haffrung]

I don't care what you're interested in. You don't get to decide what the conversation is.

And who in the book making process caused all the elves to be white is utterly meaningless. The book made it to print that way.

I challenge you to use pen and ink to draw a character with bronze skin.

Look at the pictures in the 1E MM and the other early D&D books: all humanoids are white. Elves, dwarves, orcs, trolls, ogres, goblins. All drawn white. Even though the descriptions have their skins range from white to bronze to read to purple. Because black and white pen art literally has to be black and white, and you can't make out features on a purely black figure.

 

[TheSword]

Alignment as is has nearly no mechanical benefit, other than some corner case rules with artifacts and other magical items. Soon, it won't be used to describe common attitudes of monsters and PC races. Its only being used for deities, planes and individuals, which is the barest use you can have for it. If it went missing utterly now, the amount of rewriting you'd have to do is minimal. I just don't see there being much use for it if it's not going to describe much anymore...

Where have you seen the suggestion from WOX that all creatures will have alignments defaults removed?? Mindflayers, Beholders, Dragons etc?

Also, WOC are very much using alignment to describe NPCs of all types.

What has Alignment got to do with Racism? Beyond default assumptions about humanoids?

 

[Sacrosanct]

Yep. A point I try to make sure I emphasize when I talk about how old school D&D can have racist or bigoted aspects. I even wrote a blog post about it when talking about why I started working on the Chromatic Dungeons project. Being a fan of old school D&D doesn't make you a racist; there are ton of elements one can enjoy that have nothing to do with racism or sexism. However, refusing to acknowledge how old school D&D was presented and how some of those things were pretty problematic is a problem. Or worse, doubling down with how those problematic issues aren't problematic and people are just "looking to be offended." That's where the issues is.

Well, this post from the first page sure became prophetic.

 

[Mannahnin]

Moorcock was a major influence on Gygax (it's always where the law/chaos thing came from).

No, I don't think the historical record bears this out. Both Gygax and Moorcock got the Law/Chaos conflict from Poul Anderson, specifically Three Hearts & Three Lions (trying to remember if it also comes up in The Broken Sword).

Of course the High Elves and Dark Elves of Games Workshop's Warhammer (getting Law & Chaos third hand, at this point) were certainly influenced by fellow-Brit Moorcock. Perhaps not coincidentally, GW's High and Dark Elves are the same species and physically pale.

 

[Haffrung]

No, I don't think the historical record bears this out. Both Gygax and Moorcock got the Law/Chaos conflict from Poul Anderson, specifically Three Hearts & Three Lions.

Gygax credited both Anderson and Moorcock as influences. In this interview he specifically cites Moorcock for the law-chaos thing.

TheOneRing.net | Features | Interviews | Gary Gygax - Creator of Dungeons & Dragons

TheOneRing.net is your ONE source for all news and rumors concerning the upcoming Lord of the Rings Movie

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And Melnibonean mythos was one of only three based on fictional works (along with Newhon/Lankhmar and Cthulhu) included in Deities and Demigods. It was clearly a big influence on D&D.

Someone would have to be blind to miss the parallels between Melniboneans and drow:

Slim
Refined
Haughty
Decadent
Live in a fantastical city
Sadistic
Keep slaves
Enjoy torture
Have contempt for other peoples
Use narcotics
Use sorcery
Feud and scheme against one another
Worship demons

 

[Charlaquin]

Right, and as with CoS I assume things will be addressed. I just don't believe Orcs or Drow are standing in for real world culture.

No one is saying they are. An element of a work of fiction doesn’t need to be a direct stand-in for something in the real world to communicate messages that are relevant to the real world, nor do the messages a work communicates need to be intentional.

 

[billd91]

Wrong. Again. From the 1E MM:

Drow: The “Black Elves,” or drow, are only legend. They purportedly
dwell deep beneath the surface in a strange subterranean realm. The
drow are said to be as dark as faeries are bright and as evil as the latter
are good. Tales picture them as weak fighters but strong magic-users

Moreover:

Description: Elves are slim of build and pale complected. Their hair is dark, and their eyes are green. Their garb is typically pastel and of blue or green or violet (but often covered by a greenish gray cloak).

And of the specific groups that have info about complexion:
Aquatic - greenish silver
Wood elf - "Their complexions are fair..."

So, yeah, when your evil variety is dark but everyone else is light, it may not have been intended to be racist, but it sure is tone deaf to the concern.