D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Azzy]

Because change is scary.

The only constant is change—we must evolve and adapt. To fear change is to fear existence.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I find the drow an interesting case.

I would want them to be different than most who dwell under the sun. Very pale makes more sense but obsidian black is simply alien.

no one on earth is the inky black of a moonless night...and def not with orange eyes.

we DO have folks that deal with albinism. Real people.

we likewise don’t have green people or genuinely gray people.

i think people are missing the first for the trees. And good elves aren’t all white by a long shot. Many are quite brown or copper.

if the artists actually drew the descriptions, this would not even be a debate.

To bounce off of this: if there's a problem in representation, it's going to first manifest as anti-inclusion. (in hobbies, inclusion comes before diversity.) In other words, the main way it happens is people of a certain group taking a look in the book and deciding they will not be welcome in the hobby.

The first impression isn't going to come from a deep dive into the lore. Nor will it come from a paragraph on how variable alignment is within a species... it'll come from people flipping through the book, looking primarily at the pictures, and either thinking "this looks like fun" or thinking "this isn't for me." Some of the later category will be people who aren't into fantasy in the first place.

But for some people, it'll be them seeing a bunch of unwelcoming stereotypes played out in the art and wondering if the people okay with this stuff will be honestly okay with them, as people. If ever dark-skinned character in the books looks like a villain, that might be a red flag to dark-skinned people who are taking a look at the game. If all the women are depicted in a sexualized manner, women might feel like they'd be subjecting themselves to being objectified by showing up. Etc.

But, of course, it's not as simple as that, even: having inky-black skin isn't necessarily enough by itself, especially if the rest of the picture looks Caucasian (like many drow, but not all). And if the pattern doesn't exist, the individual picture might not matter: if there's obviously heroes and villains of all skin tones, then a dark-skinned villain might not read as a racial thing at all. And the order and prominence of any given piece of art can make it weigh differently (ie the villain on the front cover being coded as POC is a big problem, while one in the MM might not be.)

The only way to get objective about it would be to do surveys, but those surveys need to account for the groups you're worried about excluding. If you want to know if Asians feel like the game has anti-Asian racism in it, you need to ask a bunch of Asians and collect the data. (Or, at the very least, check with trained experts like sociologists and anthropologists, but they'd probably just tell you how to design the study, and maybe point out some glaring stuff if there's any such issues.)

And with respect to actual 1e DnD - I'm not sure even that's worth doing, since it's not being made anymore. Anyone buying those books now wants them for nostalgia or historical context, so the most we could do is put a disclaimer in the front and preserve them as they were for posterity. If we're talking about Dungeons & Dragons as an IP going forward, or OSR in general, the best we can do is let the creators know we'd like them to think about these issues and try to be as inclusive as possible.

 

[HJFudge]

I have no problem with making changes to be more inclusive. I do so at my table. I do not feel the need for a book or company to dictate to me, either way, what I can or cannot do. The responsibility to make players comfortable at my table is on those at my table and ONLY those at my table. WOTC isn't responsible for it, nor CAN they be, really? It simply isn't possible.

But that isn't QUITE what is happening here in this thread.

It is not 'They should change this to be more inclusive' it is 'they should change this to be more inclusive and if you cannot see it or disagree you are a racist/bigot and I dont want to play with you.'

Changing the alignment in a monster manual will have no effect on how minorities in real life are treated or viewed. To argue otherwise is to make the same arguments that the Satanic Panic folk did in the 80's. There arguments were, on the face, ridiculous, but they played into the politics and cultural struggles of the day. The same thing is happening here.

I guess I just don't like bullies. /shrug

 

[Haffrung]

That’s just silly. “Latinx” sounds kind of cringe, sure, but it’s immediately obvious what it means. Latine sounds much better, and despite not having heard of it until this conversation, it was again, immediately obvious to me what it meant.

Minority groups are by definition smaller subsets of the broader culture. If only the majority can influence what discourse is or isn’t appropriate, no social progress can ever be made. It is important to listen to marginalized people, and to take special effort to make sure that their voices are heard.

But again we’re back to the issue of individuals being treated as spokespeople for a larger community.

If I showed the DMG to a woman of colour and she found it offensive on religious grounds (a not unlikely outcome given the very high rates of religiousity of Black American women), would it be incumbent on WotC to scrub their books of occult content in the interests of inclusion and progress?

 

[CleverNickName]

But that isn't QUITE what is happening here in this thread.

It is not 'They should change this to be more inclusive' it is 'they should change this to be more inclusive and if you cannot see it or disagree you are a racist/bigot and I dont want to play with you.'

I guess I just don't like bullies. /shrug

Who are you quoting in this thread? I haven't read all 30+ pages of posts, but I definitely don't recall anyone accusing someone of racism or bigotry in the manner you describe. Such posts are usually followed by bright red text, courtesy of a moderator.

 

[Charlaquin]

But again we’re back to the issue of individuals being treated as spokespeople for a larger community.

If I showed the DMG to a woman of colour and she found it offensive on religious grounds (a not unlikely outcome given the very high rates of religiousity of Black American women), would it be incumbent on WotC to scrub their books of occult content in the interests of inclusion and progress?

Setting aside the fact that “religious” is not a minority group, even if you narrow it down to just Christians, I don’t believe that would be a case where the impact made on the affected group would outweigh the inconvenience of the change.

 

[Azzy]

Certainly culture does.

But culture influences our games. Our games do not influence our culture. Art imitates life not so much the other way round.

Art certainly influences life, though, and can perpetuate ideas and ideals. While some of the most obvious examples are from the 60s, Woodie Guthrie and the songwriters that came before him have impacted society. Just like the Civil Rights movement has an obvious soundtrack, so too did unionization and workers rights, and such. Art has the power to transform society.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's just as Charlaquin noted. You simply cannot have monolithic race anymore. It's just never going to be seen as socially acceptable.

We as I said you could turn a positive into a negative. On this works Drow are evil in this world it's other way round on Eberron it's something else entirely.

 

[BookTenTiger]

But again we’re back to the issue of individuals being treated as spokespeople for a larger community.

If I showed the DMG to a woman of colour and she found it offensive on religious grounds (a not unlikely outcome given the very high rates of religiousity of Black American women), would it be incumbent on WotC to scrub their books of occult content in the interests of inclusion and progress?

I don't eat pork for moral reasons (even though it's so so delicious).

If I went to a BBQ and there was pork on the menu, I would not feel discriminated against.

If I went to a BBQ and there were a bunch of signs that said "people who don't eat pork are all ___" I could rightly feel offended.

Is anything in the GM denigrating her religion?

 

[Sacrosanct]

It is not 'They should change this to be more inclusive' it is 'they should change this to be more inclusive and if you cannot see it or disagree you are a racist/bigot and I dont want to play with you.'

Who is saying that?

I'm gonna be honest, and I want to be very clear that I'm not saying you are doing this. Most often, when I see discussions about equality or inclusiveness, and someone says, "I got no problem with it, I just don't like people calling me a bigot if I don't agree with them (when no one has actually said that).", it's just a cop out for not admitting that yeah, they do have a big problem with equality and inclusiveness, but are gaslighting others based on a strawman.