Old School Flavor Doesn't Mean Lazy

talien

Community Supporter
Okay, mini-rant time:

I've since switched our campaign from Living Arcanis to third-party adventures. Living Arcanis had very strictly regulated cash, exp, and equipment flow, but frankly it's starting to irk my players, who hear about everyone else advancing much more quickly in D&D. I didn't mind the slow advancement (the slow advancement in the beginning helped everyone learn how to play 3.5), but I saw their point. So now we're using third party adventures.

And the reward to risk ratio in these adventures are a little ridiculous. I enjoy a lot of the plots and ideas, but I'm seeing some stuff that is simply nonsensical. It's bad enough that there's more than a few adventures that have been written without reference to maps, so that monsters can't possibly fit in the rooms during combat (according to the maps in the adventure). That shows a lack of playtesting, but it's something of an old-school mentality that I can respect...in the old days, one didn't care about if you had enough space to fit the monsters. So I let that slide and just either increase the size of the room or decrease the size of the monsters.

But the magic items being given out are insane. An amulet of the planes, worth 120k gold and thus only appropriate to a 17th-18th level NPC, sitting in the chest of a 4 HD monster?

A ring of elemental command, worth 200k gold and thus only appropriate to a 19th-20th level NPC, on a 12th-level villain?

Powerful magic items that would be of substantial use to a monster, sitting useless in chests?

I'm all for old-school flavor. We recently ran the conversion of Castle Amber and loved it. But these new D&D adventures are indicating to me that nobody's reading page 127 of the DMG, NPC Gear Value. Which is there for a reason.

I'm not really too aggravated about this -- the PCs are now 10th-11th and are finally "feeling their oats" and are enjoying their power level. And I can always deal with the consequences of high level magic items. But I feel a little bit betrayed by the authors of these various adventures, in that I expected them to do the math and all the hard work of balancing an adventure before I played it.

I'm wondering if this is just me, or if anyone else has the same concerns?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Well, I don't get "old-school" adventures often (primarily because my LGS doesn't stock them), but I understand your concern.

Where these items really trip up is in campaigns that allow the sale and purchase of magic items. I wouldn't have any problem with the two examples you mention - mainly because I think some magic items are fun to give PCs while the item is actually powerful, and the amulet of the planes is actually useless to low-level PCs (watch the PCs end up on Limbo and be eaten by a slaad!) - except that selling them would cause the PCs to equip with actually *useful* items that cause a distortion in their abilities.

More worrisome would be a vorpal sword in a level 4 adventure. That is one of those things that could break a campaign.

I consider the wealth tables to be one of the best features of 3e. I do worry that some items are overpriced... but that is another issue.

Cheers!
 

talien said:
I'm wondering if this is just me, or if anyone else has the same concerns?

In which adventures did you see these examples? I've had some problems along similar lines -- mostly treasure that didn't exist outside of the listing (eg a staff that is not described anywhere in the adventure or the SRD, with no reference to a source; 3.5 items enchanted with 3.0 spells that no longer exist; etc.) But then WotC adventures aren't exempt from this themselves (cf a thread recently about a very powerful item in the hands of a relatively low-level NPC in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.)
 

I don't want to specifically call out these companies -- I don't think that will be particularly productive. I'm more trying to figure out of if my concerns are unreasonable and nobody else notices. My suspicion is I'm in the minority.

Other things that drive me nuts:
* NPCs lacking the requirements for a feat. Dodge requires Dex 13!
* The same versions of NPCs with the exact same stats. That is, "basic" and "advanced" version of NPCs who are higher level, but have the same ability scores. With 3.5, higher level NPCs get higher level ability scores. I expect there to be a difference between them.

I'm discovering these problems because I keep rebuilding NPCs from the ground up with e-tools to advance them to meet the challenges of a higher-level party...and sometimes I discover that even though I advanced an NPC 7 levels, he still isn't eligible for the equipment as printed.

It also seems to me that magical bonuses on items are generally restricted thusly:
* 1st-9th: +1
* 10th-14th: +2
* 15th-17th: +3
* 18th-20th: +4

Not sure if this is an actual rule or merely a guideline, but I see a lot of NPCs with +2 and +3 items when they're below 10th level.
 

Well, they had better be glad they don't game with me, I use the treasure tables as a guideline, and slash that by about 3/4.... Money doesn't grow on kobolds, ya know!
 

Thunderfoot said:
Well, they had better be glad they don't game with me, I use the treasure tables as a guideline, and slash that by about 3/4.... Money doesn't grow on kobolds, ya know!

Yes, because playing dirt scrabble farmers is the only good way to play.
 

Gah, yeah, that would suck.
PC: "Behold my mighty pitchfork, the trusty weapon that has been with me these ten levels since I left the farm behind, and cower in fear o Dragon!"
Dragon: *munch munch splortch burp*


And Thunderfoot: I do hope you at least run a lower-magic game in general, and understand how much a wealth reduction hurts warriors and skill-monkeys more than spellcasters.


Talien: I share your nit-picking and annoyance with these matters. It would hardly break a deadline to crack open a DMG or something during development and glance at the suggested treasure values as a general guideline. Let alone calculate a few things with *gasp* a common calculator if its really necessary. Or even just glance through the PHB once and memorize a few basic rules before statting up NPCs and monsters for a published product.
 

By any chance, do those same adventures happen to include unusually powerful opponents with little or no treasure at all? If they do, I fail to see much of a problem; in fact, it's sometimes a good thing to mix it up so the BBEG doesn't necessarily have the Big Loot Stack and the party have to either work or get lucky to score the big haul.

Ad far as NPC's having only +1 items till 10th level, that seems very underpowered by my standards. And just think of the PC's, 8 adventures in, just getting to 8th level or so (particularly in a game where magic cannot be bought-sold): "Ayup, this here's my trusty +1 longsword...got 7 more just like it stashed in the barn back home, 'cause for some dang reason no matter what we do or what we kill we never seem to find any better ones. I think if we get any more I'm gonna plant 'em in the south forty next spring, see if I can grow me a crop o' the things...'course, then I'm gonna have to get the wife to figger out how to cook 'em..."

Lanefan
 


Lanefan said:
By any chance, do those same adventures happen to include unusually powerful opponents with little or no treasure at all? If they do, I fail to see much of a problem; in fact, it's sometimes a good thing to mix it up so the BBEG doesn't necessarily have the Big Loot Stack and the party have to either work or get lucky to score the big haul.
There are other opponents that don't have treasure -- animals, in this case. That said, they're definitely not powerful enough to warrant a magic item of 20th level.

Ad far as NPC's having only +1 items till 10th level, that seems very underpowered by my standards.
The only standards I'm going by is the DMG. Its NPC section shows sample magic items for NPCs at each level. Most of them don't start getting +2 items until 11th level. *shrug*
 

Remove ads

Top