Old School Flavor Doesn't Mean Lazy

talien said:
Uh, yes?

Not sure I understand what you're getting at.

Meaning they don't have as much wealth as player characters, and so wouldn't have the wealth to commission or purchase a +1 sword at the same time characters would.

Looked it up last night, and going by the Magic Item Compendium, a character by the default wealth rules would be looking at a +1 sword around 6th level. That's about 1/7th to 1/8th of his total wealth of 13,000. Now, at different levels of magic prevalence in a campaign, that's different, of course - but if a person intended at staying at the default "wealth level", and used the NPCs as a guideline, that might be a bad source to look at, because they're by neture only getting a fraction of what the PCs would be expected to accumulate.
 

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Not necessarily. That assumes that the PCs only ever encounter NPCs of their level.

According to the DMG, some encounters (10% I think?) should be up to 4 levels higher than the PCs. Therefore, there's opportunity for higher level NPCs to be encountered with higher level equipment.

By far the biggest challenge in creating opponents is their quantity. If I were to kit out every foe with the full range of PC equipment at higher levels, taking one of the NPCs out would keep a PC set for life! Thus, not every bad guy has the full potential of his equipment, which I think works out just fine.

I also think having one main bad guy (the final villain) be equipped like a PC makes perfect sense. But not every NPC. Certainly not hordes of 5th level pirates, soldiers, and other "fodder" monsters.

To me, this is why it's so important that adventures stick to the guidelines or have good reasons for not doing so.

The other problem is equating equipment value to challenge. So for example, it's very easy to give an NPC equipment equal to his level because he's using or wearing it. It gets trickier when said NPC's equipment value (be it gold, magic items, etc.) is spread out over several rooms. How many bad guys adds up to a more poweful item?

Or to put it another way, if I slay 100 kobolds, does that somehow justify giving an artifact at the end of the adventure? It's a slippery slope.

And it gets slippier when you factor in random encounters, which I really dislike. Random encounters aren't a set number and thus aren't "planned" -- since a monster isn't in its lair, the likelihood of the beast giving treasure is decreased. Therefore, PCs end up with far more risk than reward if the PC doesn't get the treasure immediately tied to that encounter.

Example: if the party randomly encounters a giant anaconda, a shambling mound, and a swarm of spiders (this happened in my story hour), none of which carry equipment on them, should the bad guys days later have more gold/equipment to compensate? How much more?

And in addition, sometimes, especially in seafaring adventures where there's a lot more ability for monsters to wander, the PCs get attacked by a single giant monster (I've enjoyed throwing a giant octopus, giant diving spider, and a sea drake at them). The monster's difficulty is exaggerated -- if you go by the assumption that most encounters are based on four a day, one big encounter in a day means the monster will be more powerful (possibly more powerful than the 4 levels higher rule in the DMG). Should the items the PCs receive later in the adventure be worth more because of that single encounter five days earlier?

Sometimes, I think monsters just shouldn't give out treasure and that's fine. It certainly doesn't justify tossing in an amulet of the planes for their trouble. It strikes me as careless.

In fact, I'd really like some sort of standard where certain "game changing" items show up. I don't particularly find a +5 sword more threatening than +3 sword to my game. More damage is more damage after all. I do have a problem with items that allow PCs to leave the plane at any time being tossed into a reward for a random encounter.

As for calling out which companies/adventures these are, you can find out which adventures they are by reading my story hour...you'll see the PCs acquire these items (and how I deal with it, or don't).

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=103252
 

Ourph said:
In the beginning of D&D it wasn't such a problem because the rules were specifically designed to deal with the level of treasure included in published adventures. The Helm of Brilliance you found in the chest might last a couple of game sessions, then you'd fall in a pit, fail your item saving throw and your nice, shiny magic helmet became a useless hunk of metal.

The problem is that people equate those types of treasure hauls with "old school" and put them into modules designed for rules systems that aren't equipped to deal with them and aren't built around the same assumptions.

Similar things happen with "old school" non-magical treasure amounts. Run a 3e group through an unaltered AD&D module (based on a system with training costs and item loss factored in) and you'll come out with a gp haul that will seriously imbalance your 3e game (but was perfectly fine for an AD&D game because the rules were built around PCs gaining and then spending large amounts of GP as they advanced in level).
Yep. Just played Castle Amber and our resident fighter got his very own Ring of Major Spell Storing as a result of a random draw of a fortune teller's card. In my story hour, he ends up in his own solo adventure and uses it extensively. For some reason that doesn't bother me as much. Maybe because having the ring doesn't provide anything new...he's got the same powers the spellcaster has, and since we're often missing a PC or two, it's actually a big help.
 

I never bought adventures, but Im one of those people who just doesnt care about the PC wealth by level thing. If your 1st level and you somehow pick a fight with a 20th level wizards and you happen to role all crits and he happens to fail everything he does, well your going to get his stuff. Sure your unbalanced Items wise but oh well.
I tend to give my NPCs what I think makes sense for them regardless of Level or the Pc's level. The players dont need to know how he or she got it. Now that applies to items only. feats and prestige classes must be gained when the PC or NPC has the appropriate prerequisites, im pretty strict about that.
I just dont buy the fact that a 1st-5th level character will never get a better than +1 weapon, even if by fluke. So outrageous magic items dont bother me.
 

It's always enjoyable hearing one of our DMs who likes to run old modules.

"...the hell? Who'd give this guy a Hammer of Thunderbolts as a present?"

Thunderfoot said:
Well, they had better be glad they don't game with me, I use the treasure tables as a guideline, and slash that by about 3/4.... Money doesn't grow on kobolds, ya know!

Wealth guideline issues notwithstanding, kobolds are miners, and are likely to encounter precious metals.

As such, money is in fact quite likely to grow on kobolds.

Brad
 

talien said:
And it gets slippier when you factor in random encounters, which I really dislike. Random encounters aren't a set number and thus aren't "planned" -- since a monster isn't in its lair, the likelihood of the beast giving treasure is decreased. Therefore, PCs end up with far more risk than reward if the PC doesn't get the treasure immediately tied to that encounter.

I think that's balanced by the fact that you can frequently get XP for wandering monsters just by avoiding them or escaping.
 

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