On Behavioral Realism

[Fenris-77]

That to me sounds more like a description of bad (aka inconsistent) roleplaying rather than not roleplaying at all.

IMO. The player is roleplaying no matter what's informing the players decisions for their character. Speaking of informing decisions for a character - if you change it to a mechanical incentive so the player starts doing what you want is that really a decision informed by roleplaying? I would say it is - but would you?

I agree that it looks like bad roleplaying, I guess we're just drawing the line about why in different places. Making decisions like the one were talking about here, based on mechanics once removed from the fiction, is usually 'bad' if what you actually want is fictional engagement. In this case the players weren't really making decisions for their characters at all. If anything I'd say they were making decisions for their character sheets. There's enough ways that doesn't meet my general expectations about avatar engagement with the diagetic frame that I'm happy to at least joke about it not being roleplaying. Keep in mind, I did drop a caveat about my personal aesthetic distaste not equaling a value judgement.

There's no serious argument to be had here about the deeper nature of what a TTRPG is, or what it means to roleplay. We have other threads for that.

 

[bloodtide]

This has been a problem from the first days of gaming: everyone plays a diffrent game. And this is the worst of all: The DM and players are playing different games.

Most players play D&D specifically for the combat action adventure game. At lot of DM though want some sort of reality simulation. As you can see the two don't really meet up.

 

[Fenris-77]

I think it may be a bit strong to say that what people are looking for is a 'reality simulation'. It might be fairer to say that some (perhaps even many) DMs hope for some (any) engagement in the fiction outside of combat, whatever that looks like. Could be social interaction, could be exploration, could be stronger inter-PC interactions, whatever. D&D is actually kinda boring when it's all handwaving in between combat encounters. IMO anyway, YMMV.

 

[dragoner]

Things like burning infants to death, after accusing them of witchcraft, makes the never having bathed thing, not as big a deal. Medieval Europeans could be considered some of humanity at its lowest point, it's weird how they got to that point from the classical era. There is a documentary on violence, and how we are becoming less violent as time goes on, which makes for a weird juxtaposition for modern or sci-fi games, because some of the PC's are extremely bloody, having killed a lot of people. How to deal with that?

 

[MGibster]

Things like burning infants to death, after accusing them of witchcraft, makes the never having bathed thing, not as big a deal. Medieval Europeans could be considered some of humanity at its lowest point, it's weird how they got to that point from the classical era. There is a documentary on violence, and how we are becoming less violent as time goes on, which makes for a weird juxtaposition for modern or sci-fi games, because some of the PC's are extremely bloody, having killed a lot of people. How to deal with that?

I hate do sound pedantic, but medieval Europeans didn't burn witches. The era of witch burning was during the early modern period from approximately 1450-1750.

 

[dragoner]

I hate do sound pedantic, but medieval Europeans didn't burn witches. The era of witch burning was during the early modern period from approximately 1450-1750.

Yes, they did. The height of recorded activity, is precisely because the printing press had arrived after the 1400's, to allow records. They also did much worse, attacking Jewish people, and those they found apostate.

 

[Fenris-77]

The classical period was full to bursting with such higher brow pursuits as mass slavery, huge social divides, and bloodsports of every imaginable kind. It's not quite the enormous 'fall' to the middle ages that a lot of people seem to think it is.

I think we'd need a more granular definition of 'medieval European' too, because most them did indeed not burn witches. Burning at the stake was a particular peccadillo of the church for the most part.

 

[dragoner]

Right, because stoning them would have been better. Joan of Arc was burned for wearing men's clothing, and cats were killed in massive numbers due to superstitious ignorance right before the plague wiped out a third of everyone. Never-mind to loping off of people's privates as trophies ... what an era of glory.

All of the evils mentioned from the classical era last past the medieval era as well, and with the additional burning of all books, intentional illiteracy. Crucifixions where they found that they had to drive spikes through peoples wrists, because they would rip from someone's hand. A boon was where women and children could help hang the husband by putting the weight upon the rope ...

 

[Fenris-77]

I'm struggling to decide what your point is here. Care to enlighten me? I have a toddler shouting in my ear about cornflakes, so it really might be me and not you...

 

[dragoner]

on ignore you go ...