D&D General On Skilled Play: D&D as a Game

[clearstream]

I don't think using it to steal the gem is skilled play, either. See my example above.

Would stealing the gem with a 10' pole be "skilled play"?

 

[Voadam]

Is it right that all mechanics must be eschewed, in order for play to be purely "skilled play"? So for instance, using unseen servant ingeniously to penetrate the ToH would not be skilled play, because it is a mechanical rather than purely narrative device?

I don't understand why you would think the unseen servant would not count as being a concrete element in the narrative to be used as a tool. There would be no conceptual difference between using an unseen servant to open the lid of a chest you suspected of being covered in poison and using a 10 foot pole or a sword to do so to avoid direct flesh contact.

Using an existing physical thing created by magic (an unseen servant) to do a specific concrete action would be conceptually different from using an abstracted disable trap check mechanic.

 

[clearstream]

I don't understand why you would think the unseen servant would not count as being a concrete element in the narrative to be used as a tool. There would be no conceptual difference between using an unseen servant to open the lid of a chest you suspected of being covered in poison and using a 10 foot pole or a sword to do so to avoid direct flesh contact.

Using an existing physical thing created by magic (an unseen servant) to do a specific concrete action would be conceptually different from using an abstracted disable trap check mechanic.

Can you explain the concept, under which it is different?

 

[Maxperson]

Would stealing the gem with a 10' pole be "skilled play"?

Yes. No mechanics are involved.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I don't think using it to steal the gem is skilled play, either. See my example above.

Fair enough. I think it's a weak example (it's certainly not very creative) but that it still falls within the bounds of what I would consider to be "skilled play".

That is parallels my thought. However, it seems to me to introduce a challenge to the construct. We (may have) wanted to exclude materiel from "skilled play", but it turns out that we cannot exclude materiel from "skilled play". This shows, as you have said, that they are not in opposition.

One then asks, could a mechanic like a Strength (Athletics) check also be used in "skilled play"? What do you think?

I think that an athletics check could be involved in skilled play, sure.

Just rolling an athletics check to kick down a door isn't skilled play.

However, to use a recent example, say you want to use a 10' pole to knock a gem off of a trapped dais. However, the gem is affixed to the dais, so the DM asks for an athletics check to pull it off. I think that's still skilled play.

 

[Campbell]

The way I look at it skilled play (of the fiction) is all about a player's ability to reason about the fictional environment. Mechanics can be involved in the process (and a lot are in something like B/X or AD&D), but they are secondary. Skilled utilization of mechanics is a separate thing.

 

[Voadam]

Can you explain the concept, under which it is different?

"I use this thing that exists as an actual object in the game narrative (unseen servant) to do X (open the chest lid) to activate the trap from a hopefully safe distance" versus "I use this thing that exists on my character sheet as a mechanics abstraction to hopefully disable the trap on the chest."

 

[Maxperson]

Fair enough. I think it's a weak example (it's certainly not very creative) but that it still falls within the bounds of what I would consider to be "skilled play".

I don't think it really matters honestly. Skilled play and non-skilled play which used mechanical abilities and still required skill, were both used very often. It's not as if Jim Ward and the other players said, "Well, we could use stone shape and passwall to get past both the trap and monster and make off with the treasure, but since that would involve mechanics and not skilled play, we won't do that."

Whether you view your example as non-skilled play or skilled play doesn't matter at the end of the day. It's still a player idea to overcome the obstacle and make off with the loot, and part of the fun.

 

[Fenris-77]

Yes. No mechanics are involved.

That seems like an odd place to draw a line in the sand. Classic editions of D&D, from whence the term skilled play primarily descends, have lots of mechanics. Using a mechanic doesn't make something not skilled play. BX has rules for finding secret doors for example, does that mean you can't do skilled play with BX? Obviously you can, so perhaps there's definitional issues in play here...

 

[Fanaelialae]

I don't think it really matters honestly. Skilled play and non-skilled play which used mechanical abilities and still required skill, were both used very often. It's not as if Jim Ward and the other players said, "Well, we could use stone shape and passwall to get past both the trap and monster and make off with the treasure, but since that would involve mechanics and not skilled play, we won't do that."

Whether you view your example as non-skilled play or skilled play doesn't matter at the end of the day. It's still a player idea to overcome the obstacle and make off with the loot, and part of the fun.

Agreed. It's a play style, so exactly where the line sits is subjective.

Something I was mulling over earlier was whether accidental skilled play would constitute skilled play.

Case 1: A player thinks it would be funny to freak out some NPCs. So he conjures an unseen servant and has it carry a candle around. He gets a good chuckle out of the DM describing the NPCs' reactions to this "ghost".

Case 2: A player suspects there might be an antimagic field nearby. Not wanting to blunder into it, he conjures an unseen servant and has it carry a candle. If the candle drops, then that is likely to be the edge of an antimagic field.

Case 3: The player thinks it would be funny to freak out some NPCs, so he acts as in case 1. However, during these antics the candle suddenly drops, indicating that there is an antimagic field in town.

I think most people would probably agree that the first case does not constitute skilled play, whereas the second case does. However, I suspect people might have varying opinions on the third case.

Another example I thought of was if the players were faced with the Sphinx's riddle (let's just assume they'd never heard it before). One of the players exclaims, "Man! I could really go for a beer, how about you guys?" He gives the correct answer, but purely by accident.