D&D General On Skilled Play: D&D as a Game

[Maxperson]

We can then step back from Wish to other spells to see the extent to which they elide some standard procedure of play: eg Passwall or Dimension Door circumvents (to a degree) the standard skilled play of geography and architecture; Rope Trick or Leomund's Tiny Hut circumvents (to a degree) the standard skilled play of managing the duration of an incursion into a dungeon; Continual Light completely circumvents the skilled play of light sources; etc. This brings us back to Unseen Servant which doesn't circumvent anything at all as far as I can see; nor, as far as I can see, does Transmute Rock to Mud.

If light circumvents the skilled play of using torches, then unseen servant would circumvent the skilled play of hiring a hireling to carry small items, open drawers and such, and pick up stuff. It can also circumvent the skilled play of the rogue to a degree, allowing traps to be set off harmlessly. Transmute Rock to Mud would circumvent the skilled play of needing to buy a pickaxe to break through a stone wall or reduce a boulder blocking the passage to rubble. Most, if not all magic circumvents something mundane.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Tiny nitpick on a great post. CL largely circumvents the resource management aspect of light sources, while introducing a couple of new possible complications. For example, depending on the edition, CL often has a much brighter and wider area than a torch, which can be a downside in some circumstances. For another, if you've replaced your stock of torches with a single rod having CL cast on it, you've now got one valuable implement instead of a bunch of disposable ones. You also may not have an open flame handy if you suddenly need to (e.g.) burn some green slime off someone, or ignite an oil flask thrown on a troll.

We learned to be very cautious in Gary's dungeon. We started tossing torches and then lanterns into dark rooms. It wasn't too many burnt scrolls and broken potion bottles to have us change our ways. Soon, we were tossing in coins with Continual Light tossed on them. This caution had consequences as wandering creatures would be attracted to the magical light.

James Ward, "Gaming With Gary Gygax" on Enworld.

Yep!

 

[Maxperson]

Tiny nitpick on a great post. CL largely circumvents the resource management aspect of light sources, while introducing a couple of new possible complications. For example, depending on the edition, CL often has a much brighter and wider area than a torch, which can be a downside in some circumstances. For another, if you've replaced your stock of torches with a single rod having CL cast on it, you've now got one valuable implement instead of a bunch of disposable ones. You also may not have an open flame handy if you suddenly need to (e.g.) burn some green slime off someone, or ignite an oil flask thrown on a troll.

Once we could cast continual light, every group I played with had at least one continual light object on each person in the party. I've never been in a game where we just cast it once.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't see how you can say this. I once had a family member who slipped a disk while working with a piece of dresser-sized furniture, and ended up in traction in hospital!

Not using D&D rules!

Or what if you just fail to notice a particular join in the furniture, and so treat as one component what is actually two, with a message written on one or both of the hidden touching surfaces? (I once knew of a dresser which had a hidden compartment which, when you opened it up and pulled it out, had a picture of a spider in its web. I'm imagining a variant on that, where the hidden words/image are on a piece of timber joined to another piece of timber with a join so smooth that to superficial inspection it looks like one piece.)

Sure. There might be corner case scenarios where my action might fail, but generally it will not and I'm still not asking permission. The action happens as I declared it. It just might not work out in a few rare cases.

AD&D and B/X have no way of handling the case I mention in the previous paragraph except via a check to notice concealed doors. Even saying I take my axe to it and hack it all up won't do the job, as hacking may damage the surface and hence render the writing illegible.

And yes, you could destroy what it was you were searching for. I bashed open a few false bottoms in drawers that I found, only to discover some broken potions. No roll was needed to find the compartment, though, since my skilled play revealed it.

 

[pemerton]

Most, if not all magic circumvents something mundane.

Magic vs mundane is a feature of the fiction. It's not a feature of the process of play.

If light circumvents the skilled play of using torches, then unseen servant would circumvent the skilled play of hiring a hireling to carry small items, open drawers and such, and pick up stuff.

The comparison was to 10' poles. And my point was that it simply sits in a different dimension of resource allocation. Much the same is true vis-a-vis hiring a torchbearer or similoar.

Transmute Rock to Mud would circumvent the skilled play of needing to buy a pickaxe to break through a stone wall or reduce a boulder blocking the passage to rubble.

The former is not a standard convention of Gygaxian play, I don't think. And in any event we're still talking about resource trade-offs. Whether one clears the boulders by moving them, or by disintegrating them, one engaged with them. Wish and Passwall are different from this. They "sidestep" the fiction.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Not exactly. Think back to the original use of the Arneson example I had- wasn't D&D. It was the Banana Republic.

Now extrapolate that. If you have a group of people (players) and they are trying to accomplish something, and there is no party, and one person is a referee, then:

1. There are times when characters can convince other characters in the game to do something. It's like the game, Diplomacy. Or like talking to other players. You can influence what the characters do through conversing- either as yourself or in a role.

2. On the other hand, if you acting in a way that is not persuasive or engaging in the fiction, but in a way that is directly opposition toward another player's character, then you need a method of adjudication that is neutral. One way of doing this is through, for example, rolling dice and having a referee interpret the results (this is also classic wargaming).

Move this into the area of TTRPGs, and the distinction becomes simple- the DM (the referee) controls the NPCs (that means 'monsters' too). Attempts to influence NPCs, like PCs, should be made one way. Attempts to directly oppose them (such as by attacking them) are made a different way.

In saying this, I am not saying that this is necessarily the right way to do it.* But it's not just "convention." There is a very sound principle behind that historical difference.

*Other people have provided reasons to not employ that system, such as a desire to be more inclusive of players that do not have the same social skills.

OK, maybe there's a point I'm missing here, but it SEEMS to me that the only difference between 'fighting with an orc' and 'searching for something someone hid' is that the other character 'the orc' is present in the moment. There's STILL a contest going on here. Even if the situation is 'man against environment', you can traditionally see that as a sort of conflict (climbing a wall might be an example). True PvP, I haven't really analyzed that, but I assume you were including NPCs in your comments.

I would say that all the same factors really apply here. I mean, suppose I personally am not super convincing, but my character role in the Braunstein is 'ambassador to East Bissel' or something. ALL of the same considerations that apply in our discussions of D&D apply here. I am not sure that the existence or lack of a 'party' is all that determinative. So, overall, I'm not sure we disagree much, but then you did say "not quite", . So maybe we almost totally agree.

 

[Maxperson]

Magic vs mundane is a feature of the fiction. It's not a feature of the process of play.

The comparison was to 10' poles. And my point was that it simply sits in a different dimension of resource allocation. Much the same is true vis-a-vis hiring a torchbearer or similoar.

The former is not a standard convention of Gygaxian play, I don't think. And in any event we're still talking about resource trade-offs. Whether one clears the boulders by moving them, or by disintegrating them, one engaged with them. Wish and Passwall are different from this. They "sidestep" the fiction.

Passwall opens up a hole in the wall for you to walk through. How is that different than opening up a hole in the wall via rock to mud? Both are bypassing the wall and enabling you to go through it. They're just doing it with somewhat different effects.

When I read the DMG and accounts by players of Gygax, skilled play as it is described is not just interacting with the environment and resource allocation, but doing so in a manner that minimizes failure/danger.

 

[Maxperson]

OK, maybe there's a point I'm missing here, but it SEEMS to me that the only difference between 'fighting with an orc' and 'searching for something someone hid' is that the other character 'the orc' is present in the moment. There's STILL a contest going on here.

The main difference is that I can't describe what I do to the orc and through skilled play minimize or eliminate the need for a roll to kill it. Unless it's tied down or paralyzed, and depending on the edition sometimes not even then, I still have to roll to hit and for damage. With searching for the hidden item, I can through how I describe what I do, completely eliminate the roll due to skilled play. If the item is hidden under the bottom right corner of the mattress and I tell the DM I lift the bottom right corner of the mattress and look there, I find the item. No roll. Or I can just search the room and if I hit the DC 15(or whatever), the DM tells me that I find an item under the right corner of the mattress

 

[Krachek]

The main difference is that I can't describe what I do to the orc and through skilled play minimize or eliminate the need for a roll to kill it. Unless it's tied down or paralyzed, and depending on the edition sometimes not even then, I still have to roll to hit and for damage. With searching for the hidden item, I can through how I describe what I do, completely eliminate the roll due to skilled play. If the item is hidden under the bottom right corner of the mattress and I tell the DM I lift the bottom right corner of the mattress and look there, I find the item. No roll. Or I can just search the room and if I hit the DC 15(or whatever), the DM tells me that I find an item under the right corner of the mattress

The mattress case, skill play imply to spy on DM notes before the game!
But what if the Dm simply write down, Main bedroom, pouch of gold, 60, Dc 15 In its note?

 

[Maxperson]

The mattress case, skill play imply to spy on DM notes before the game!

Where are you getting that from?