ON the superiority of dragons

[cool hand luke]

ON the superiority of dragons

A friend of mine were talking about dragons, and there role in this genre. He claimed, and, after looking, I think I might agree, that at any given challenge rating above about 5, a dragon IF PLAYED INTELLIGENTLY (as they should) will wipe the floor with a standard 4 person party of equal level that isn't

1. made specifically for dragon killing,
or
2. given some kind of huge tactical advantage (dragon can't fly, etc)

thoughts, opinions, is this true?

can you take a standard 4 person party at whatever level, and beat down a dragon I run, in a neutral playing field?

 

[Crothian]

Nope not true. Last night the part y of 10th level characters went against a CR 12 Fang Dragon that was specifically designed by me using the Draconimicon. It was darn tough, and 4 out of the 5 main characters lost more then 80% of their HPs, but the party did win. They didn't even play that smart, they charged it instead of hitting it at range.

But there are just too many varibles of what a party might have in it, and what abilities a dragon can have. I think we could get a dozen different answers to what a "standard party" is for instance. Dragons can be tough, and sometimes they can whipe the floor with any party, and sometimes they actually lose though.

 

[cool hand luke]

by "standard" I really meant size (4) and some balance between abilities. THe "archetype" of course is fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue, but any variation of that would be useful.

 

[reiella]

If the dragon makes use/abuses it's tactical advantages, it may be difficult for a party to actually kill a dragon, but more than possibly for a party to force the dragon into retreat.

Something to remember, that I have at least noticed, is the Mage will typically have a similiar level of mobility as the dragon.

Party's don't need to be specifically tuned for Dragon killing to kill a dragon. Although, there aren't many means to tune a party for dragon killing that aren't just 'good adventure sense', and only a handful of expendable items really come to mind, or the use of dragon-bane weapons/classes.

[ Edit / Add ]
Also, the tactical advantage need not be given, if prepared, the party should take the advantage.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Dragons are tough critters, sure. Your CR5 dragon can just fly above the party, strafing them with breath weapons every few rounds. They can be really annoying.

 

[Wippit Guud]

A lot also depends on where it takes place... dragons tend to be much harder in their lair.... at least mine are.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Nope not true. Last night the part y of 10th level characters went against a CR 12 Fang Dragon that was specifically designed by me using the Draconimicon. It was darn tough, and 4 out of the 5 main characters lost more then 80% of their HPs, but the party did win. They didn't even play that smart, they charged it instead of hitting it at range.

4 out of "5 main characters"? How many PCs are we talking here? That might explain why a 10th-level party would fare all right against a CR 12 dragon. (Also, fangs are a bit on the weak side, lacking some of the stronger abilities, including a breath weapon.)

 

[Crothian]

4 out of "5 main characters"? How many PCs are we talking here? That might explain why a 10th-level party would fare all right against a CR 12 dragon. (Also, fangs are a bit on the weak side, lacking some of the stronger abilities, including a breath weapon.)

3 PCs, one NPC and a Unicorn cohort. Those are the main character. The dog, flying cat, ball of light, wind lizard, and talking squirrel while part of the party, really have few useful abilities.

 

[caudor]

Much also depends on the tactics of the players and how they handle it as well. It can get complicated to call it one way or the other.

Of course, Krusk likes Dragon patty.

 

[krichaiushii]

If a party randomly encounters a dragon that much more powerful than they, odds are very much in favor of a TPK.

If the same party is given time to prepare against the same dragon, then the party should win, more often than not.

Suitable preparations include suitable elemental protections, reconnaissance of the dragon's lair and usual tactics, and preparation of spells geared towards that particular dragon's percieved weakness(es). Such as prepping fire spells to run against a white dragon.