once again from the top: alt.fighter

[Afrodyte]

I know that the current fighter works pretty well for most people, but from what I've seen on this and other boards, some want a bit more for the fighter. This alt.fighter is designed to:

1. Give an incentive for people to take the fighter to at least 20th level.
2. Provide options for non-tank fighters without picking up the baggage of multiclassing or needing a PrC
3. Allow the fighter to hold his own without needing magical items to remain viable at high levels
4. Give more flavor to fighter abilities

Note: Things marked with a question mark are things that I'm not quite decided on yet. I am leaning towards the idea that if the effect it has on the class concept and balance with other classes is virtually nil, I'll give it to them.

Flavor text as PHB. HD, saves, BAB as PHB.

Skills
I tried to think of things that would be useful to all fighters, not just particular fighter concepts. I didn't alter the number of skill points fighters got, but I tried to make the skills they do have a bit more relevant, thus making the possibility of taking cross-class skills a bit less punitive than it would otherwise be. I changed the fighter skill list to: Craft, Handle Animal?, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Dungeoneering, Geography, History, Local, Nobility/Royalty), Listen?, Profession, Ride?, Spot?.

Class abilities by level
1. Bonus feat
2. Defensive tactics, bonus feat
3.
4. Offensive tactics +1
5. Weapon sense +1
6.
7. Bonus feat
8. Offensive tactics +2
9. Weapon sense +2
10. Weapon Mastery (Weapon Focus), bonus feat
11. Defensive tactics, bonus feat
12. Offensive tactics +3
13. Weapon sense +3, bonus feat
14. Weapon Mastery (Weapon Specialization), bonus feat
15.
16. Style feat, offensive tactics +4
17. Weapon Mastery (Improved Critical), bonus feat
18. Weapon sense +4
19. Bonus feat
20. Defensive tactics, offensive tactics +5

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: As PHB.

Size-up. When facing an opponent, as a full round action, fighters may make a special Sense Motive check to determine the skill and condition of a single opponent. To do this, make an Intelligence check and add your fighter levels plus your ranks in Sense Motive. With a result of 15, you know how skilled a combatant your opponent is: Novice (BAB +0 to +4), Seasoned (BAB +5 to +9), Veteran (BAB +10 to +14), Master (BAB +15 to +19), or Legend (BAB +20 or higher). With a result of 20, you can determine the condition of your opponent: Hale (more than 3/4 total hit points), Hurt (1/2 to 3/4 total hit points), Wounded (1/4 to 1/2 total hit points), Near Death (less than 1/4 hit points), or Dying (negative hit points). The information gained from Size-up is cumulative. So, a result of 22 will reveal your opponent's condition as well as his skill.

Defensive Tactics. At 2nd level, when fighting defensively, fighters only suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls rather than the standard -4. At 11th level, when fighting defensively, a fighter gains a +6 dodge bonus to AC. At 20th level, an armed fighter never provokes an attack of opportunity for moving into or out of a threatened area or for any standard combat action taken while within a threatened area, unless otherwise indicated below.

Offensive Tactics. At 4th level, when a fighter uses the full attack action, she gains a +1 bonus to either her first attack or to all damage rolls that round. This bonus increases by +1 every 4 levels.

Weapon Sense. Fighters have a knack for learning how to use new weapons quickly. This is represented by a bonus that decreases the penalty for fighting with unfamiliar weapons. At 5th level, fighters gain a +1 competence bonus to attack rolls when fighting using weapons with which they are not proficient. This bonus increases to +2 at 9th level and +3 at 13th level. By 18th level, fighters effectively have no penalty when using a weapon with which they are not proficient.

Weapon Mastery. At 10th level, fighters may use the Weapon Focus feat with any weapon in the group with which the weapn belongs. At 13th level, they may use Weapon Specialization with any weapon in that group. At 17th level, fighters may use Improved Critical with any weapon in the weapon group. In order to use the Weapon Mastery ability, a fighter must have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with at least one weapon in the group with which he wishes to use this ability. The weapon groups are: Bows and Crossbows; Axes and Picks; Clubs, Maces, and Hammers; Thrown Weapons; Light Weapons; Light Blades; Heavy Blades; and Polearms, Staves, and Spears. Weapon Mastery only applies to weapons with which the fighter is proficient.

Bonus Feats.[/u] As PHB.

(Optional) Style Feats. Fighters tend to develop their abilities along a specific method of fighting or area of expertise. These are represented in the styles below. Fighters are not restricted to focusing on one style. Many dabble in at least two styles as a way of developing complementary abilities that can help the party. Of course, those who devote themselves to a single style reap impressive benefits as well. At first level, you choose which style will be your primary style and which will be your secondary style. You may take style feats only from your chosen styles. These replace the bonus feats as listed above. However, a style does not become fixed until you pick one of the style feats from that style.

Freddy Fighter picks Juggernaut as his primary style and Strategist as his secondary style. He picks Power Attack as his first style feat. Since juggernaut is Freddy's primary style, he reduces the Armor Check Penalty of any armor he wears by 1, and he can move at normal speed in medium armor and only reduces his speed by 5 feet in heavy armor. Freddy's 4th level style feat is Improved Power Attack. But, perhaps around 5th level he considers changing his secondary style to fencer. This is perfectly alright, since he hasn't yet picked up any strategist style feats. He used the normal character feats to get Dodge (1st level), Combat Expertise (3rd level), and Weapon Finesse (6th level). However, if he took Crafty as his 4th level style feat, he cannot then pick up fencer style feats.

Fencer
The fencer utilizes speed and precision to lethal effect, often defeating enemies before they even knew they were hit. Fencer style feats work best when they are not encumbered by armour or slowed down by heavy, clumsy weapons.

Fencers can only use their style feats when lightly armored or unarmored and when wielding light weapons. When unarmored, they gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC.

The fencer's style feats are:
Elusive. Prerequisite: Dodge, Fighter 4th+. You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC for every three full fighter levels you have.
Rapid Strike. Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse, Fighter 4th+. You can make an additional attack at your highest BAB, but you incur a -2 penalty to all attacks made that round.
Vital Strike. Prerequisites: Weapon finesse, Fighter 10th+. After spending some time focusing, when you successfully hit your opponent, you double the threat range of the weapon you are using. Vital strike is a full round action.
Uncanny Dodge. Prerequisites: Dodge, Elusive. You retain your Dexterity bonus to AC even if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, if immobilized, you lose this bonus.
Riposte. Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Fighter 7th+. When an opponent in your threatened area misses an attack against you, you get an attack of opportunity at your highest base attack bonus. You may only use Riposte once per round, even if you have the Combat Reflexes feat.
Improved Uncanny Dodge. Prerequisites: Dodge, Elusive, Uncanny Dodge. You can no longer be flanked. A rogue wishing to sneak attack you must be of higher level to succeed.
Bonus feat. Fencers may choose their bonus feats from the following list: Acrobatic, Agile, Combat Expertise (Improved Disarm), Combat Reflexes, Dodge (Mobility, Spring Attack), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (light exotic weapon of your choice), Improved Critical (light weapon of choice), Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Quick Draw, Skill Focus (Balance), Skill Focus (Tumble), Two-Weapon Fighting (Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization; all in light weapon of your choice). You must meet all prerequisites to take bonus feats.

Juggernaut
A juggernaut is a fighter whose primary style focuses on using physical power and hefty weapons to their greatest advantage. Juggernauts use their incredible strength to pulverize their opponents.

Because of their exceptional strength, the weight of armor does not hamper the movement of juggernauts as it does other warriors. Juggernauts with a Strength score of 15 or higher reduce the Armor Check Penalty of any armor they wear by 1 (minimum armor check penalty is 0). When wearing medium armor, their speed is not affected, and when wearing heavy armor, they only reduce their speed by five feet. Juggernauts can only use their style feats with weapons that are proportionately medium or heavy for their size. Light weapons as often as not tend to break when subjected to the punishment that juggernauts put their weapons through. However, juggernauts can use their style feats when unarmed, provided they have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

The juggernaut's style feats are:
Hardy. Prerequisite: Toughness, Fighter 4th+. Your hit die is increased to d12. You may only apply this to your fighter levels.
Improved Power Attack. Prerequisite: Power Attack, Fighter 4th+. You may ignore up to your Strength bonus in damage resistance when making attacks.
Crushing Blow. Prerequisites: Power Attack, Improved Power Attack. When you make a critical hit, you add twice your Strength bonus to damage.
Devastating Blow. Prerequisites: Power Attack, Improved Power Attack, Crushing Blow. When you make an attack that does massive damage, you increase the save DC. The increase is equal to half your fighter levels, rounded down.
Bonus feat. Athletic, Endurance (Die Hard), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (exotic medium or heavy melee weapon of your choice), Great Fortitude, Improved Critical (melee weapon of choice), Improved Unarmed Strike (Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist), Power Attack (Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder), Toughness, Weapon Focus (Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization; all in melee weapon of your choice). You must meet all prerequisites for bonus feats.

Marksman
A marksman is a fighter whose primary style focuses on ranged weapons. With a sharp eye and steady hand, and plenty of ammunition, marksmen are the unquestioned masters of ranged combat.

Marksmen often prefer using one type of ranged weapon. Choose one ranged weapon from the following: crossbow (light and repeating light), crossbow (heavy and repeating heavy), crossbow (hand), dart, javelin, longbow (includes composite longbow), shortbow (includes composite shortbow), sling, or shuriken. When using your favored weapon, you get a +1 bonus to all attack and damage rolls.

The marksman's style feats are:
Awareness. Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot, Wisdom 13+. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for making ranged attacks in a threatened area.
Focused Shot. Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Fighter 7th+. After spending some time carefully aiming, you gain a +4 circumstance bonus to an attack roll against one target. Focused shot is a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, even if you have the Awareness style feat and the Defensive tactics ability.
Mighty Shot. Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Specialization, Fighter 7th+. When using ranged weapons for which you have the Weapon Specialization feat, you increase the damage die by one step.
Sneaky Shot. Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precse Shot, Rapid Shot, Fighter 7th+. You threaten all opponents in melee range when using a ranged weapon as if you wielded a reach weapon.
Favored Weapon. Prerequisites: Proficient with weapon. You may choose another weapon from the list above as a favored weapon.
Bonus feat. Alertness, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (any ranged exotic weapon), Improved Critical (ranged weapon of choice), Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot (Precise Shot, Far Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run, Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot), Rapid Reload, Skill Focus (Spot), Weapon Focus (Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization; all in ranged weapon of your choice). You must meet all prerequisites for bonus feats.

Strategist
A strategist is a fighter whose primary style focuses on using the mind as a weapon, exploiting weaknesses in her enemies' defenses or, when such weaknesses are lacking, creating them.

Strategists choose one of the following special maneuvers: aid another, bull rush, charge, disarm, feint, fight defensively, overrun, or total defense. You get a +1 bonus to the roll for attempting this maneuver. If you choose fight defensively as your special maneuver, you gain a +1 bonus to either your attack roll or your AC instead (choose which at the beginning of the round).

Strategists depend upon situational awareness and close observation of their opponents to use their abilities. You can only use strategist style feats when you are aware of your opponents and can react to them.

The strategist's style feats are:
Crafty. Prerequisite: Combat Expertise. When using the Size-up ability, you apply the bonuses from your Wisdom score and the Negotiator and Skill Focus (Sense Motive) feats.
Slick. Prerequisite: Combat Expertise, Fighter 4th+. You add your Intelligence bonus to feint, disarm, and trip attempts. This stacks with the bonus from the Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, and Improved Trip feats.
Cunning Defense. Prerequisite: Expertise, Fighter 4th+. You add your Intelligence bonus to your AC while fighting defensively or when using total defense.
Wily Strike. Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Slick. After spending one round observing an opponent, you gain an insight bonus to your attack roll equal to your Intelligence modifier. Wily Strike is a full round action.
Improved Cunning Defense. Prerequisite: Combat Expertise, Cunning Defense, Fighter 10+. You apply your Intelligence bonus to AC.
Opportunist. Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Slick, Wily Strike. When make a successful attack against an opponent denied the Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, you double the threat range of the weapon you wield.
Bonus feat. Alertness, Combat Expertise (Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Whirlwind Attack), Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency?, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Leadership, Negotiator, Persuasive, Skill Focus (Bluff), Skill Focus (Sense Motive), Skill Focus (Spot)?, Weapon Focus? (Weapon Specialization?, Greater Weapon Focus?, Greater Weapon Specialization?). You must meet all prerequisites for bonus feats.

If anyone playtests this, please let me know how it turns out.

 

[Afrodyte]

*shameless self-promoting bump*

 

[Li Shenron]

You must be playing in a high-powered campaign, right? Your Fighter basically gets the usual 11 feats, plus all the other stuff... I don't have Midnight but I have heard that it is a low-magic setting, and therefore I guess it has to compensate for the lack of magic equipment with more powerful abilities.

Most of the style feats are good ideas but definitely more powerful than the average feat. If that's made on purpose, I'll try to keep it in mind and give some comments. Once you're done with the Figther, it'd be nice to read what you are going to do with the other classes

I just skip the Skills parts, I think you can do what you want with it.

Defensive Tactics. At 2nd level, when fighting defensively, fighters only suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls rather than the standard -4. At 11th level, when fighting defensively, a fighter gains a +6 dodge bonus to AC. At 20th level, an armed fighter never provokes an attack of opportunity for moving into or out of a threatened area or for any combat action taken while within a threatened area.

The first two steps in this feature won't come to play too often - at least IMXP a few times the fight defensively option is used - and therefore they are ok. The fact not to provoke AoO is VERY powerful. However, it doesn't happen until level 20th, which is just one level before epic... This is a very good incentive to be a single class Ftr and therefore is very welcome.

Offensive Tactics. At 4th level, when a fighter uses the full attack action, she gains a +1 bonus to either her first attack or to all damage rolls that round. This bonus increases by +1 every 4 levels.

I suppose it means that in levels 4 and 5 when you have 1 attack/round only, you can already use this ability if you attack as a FRA instead of a standard action. But afterwards I think this is really too good: feats like WFocus and WSpec are worth much less if you can get this kind bonuses automatically with ALL weapons. I suggest you at least tie this ability with a chose style, such as only when using double weapons, or when fighting sword&shield or when using a 1-handed weapon with a free hand and so on... Otherwise it's just a boon to every fighter in the same way, to make them more powerful than the other combat classes, and these bonuses go up very fast too!

Weapon Sense. Fighters have a knack for learning how to use new weapons quickly. This is represented by a bonus that decreases the penalty for fighting with unfamiliar weapons. At 5th level, fighters gain a +1 competence bonus to attack rolls when fighting using weapons with which they are not proficient. This bonus increases to +2 at 9th level and +3 at 14th level. By 18th level, fighters effectively have no penalty when using a weapon with which they are not proficient.

I am not very fond of this, but it's quite ok. While the penalty is only lessened the Ftr would still prefer to use a weapon he's proficient with except emergencies (not very common, since he already has MWP); at 18th it won't disrupt the game to let him use ANY weapon in the world at no penalty - as it is written, it doesn't give him the real prof. so he still cannot choose weapon-enhancing feats such as ImprCritical or WFocus in them for example. It's very much in line with the idea of a Fighter after all.

Weapon Mastery. At 17th level, fighters may use any weapon-specific feat (Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, or Improved Critical) with any weapon in the same group. The weapon groups are: Bows and Crossbows; Axes, Clubs, and Hammers; Thrown Weapons; Light Weapons; Swords and knives; and Polearms, Staves, and Spears.

Here I really disagree. These category are too wide, try at least to restrict them more.

Fighters are not restricted to focusing on one style

I missed how the Ftr selects one style. Is having 1 feat of a style enough to "belong" to the style (and getting the general style's ability)? Each of those abilities are definitely better than a feat, keep in mind that.

Fencers...

Elusive is just too good, I'd ban it straightforward (but again, if there's no magic armor at all in your game it's ok since these feats restricts you to light armors).
Flurry is ok if it works as Rapid Shot with melee attacks, but you should clarify what that "cumulative" means, here it sounds like you can have 2 extra attacks for twice the penalty and so on...
Riposte is very powerful again, I'd limit to 1/round no matter the Combat Reflexes.
The others are OK.

Juggernaut...

Crushing Blow is completely out of question: if I understand it, with an axe (crit x3) if you have +4 in Str the critical becomes x7???? Forget about it, think of what someone could do by using this together with the other style feat that automatically makes a critical!

The others are ok (IPA is very good, but again without magic weapons someone needs to do something against DR).

Marksman...

All extremely munchkin ('xept Blind Shot which is totally overriden by Improved Precise Shot if you have prereq), with the base ability being the most. You must be a fan of archers.

I also don't like the idea of actions which provoke AoO only if they miss, normally AoO interrupts the action and if successful may even disrupt it.

Strategist...

Again all on the powerful edge, but more acceptable. I don't understand what's the difference between Cunning Defense and Improved Cunning Defense.

Of course I didn't playtest, it would take a year or so for all!

 

[Afrodyte]

You must be playing in a high-powered campaign, right? Your Fighter basically gets the usual 11 feats, plus all the other stuff... I don't have Midnight but I have heard that it is a low-magic setting, and therefore I guess it has to compensate for the lack of magic equipment with more powerful abilities.

Most of the style feats are good ideas but definitely more powerful than the average feat. If that's made on purpose, I'll try to keep it in mind and give some comments.

They are intentionally more powerful than general feats, yes. In fact, I did not consider magic or special equipment or anything of the sort when I made this class. The goal was to design characters around what they are supposed to do, not around the stuff they will have. Bonuses from magical items, unless they are enhancement bonuses, don't really impact the operation of these abilities. They are tacked on at the end, more or less.

The first two steps in this feature won't come to play too often - at least IMXP a few times the fight defensively option is used - and therefore they are ok. The fact not to provoke AoO is VERY powerful. However, it doesn't happen until level 20th, which is just one level before epic... This is a very good incentive to be a single class Ftr and therefore is very welcome.

That was one of my main goals, so thank you.

I suppose it means that in levels 4 and 5 when you have 1 attack/round only, you can already use this ability if you attack as a FRA instead of a standard action. But afterwards I think this is really too good: feats like WFocus and WSpec are worth much less if you can get this kind bonuses automatically with ALL weapons. I suggest you at least tie this ability with a chose style, such as only when using double weapons, or when fighting sword&shield or when using a 1-handed weapon with a free hand and so on... Otherwise it's just a boon to every fighter in the same way, to make them more powerful than the other combat classes, and these bonuses go up very fast too!

After thinking about it, I agree. I won't limit them along the fighting style lines such as sword & shield, two-weapon fighting, etc. I may give prerequisites like this: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical.

I am not very fond of this, but it's quite ok. While the penalty is only lessened the Ftr would still prefer to use a weapon he's proficient with except emergencies (not very common, since he already has MWP); at 18th it won't disrupt the game to let him use ANY weapon in the world at no penalty - as it is written, it doesn't give him the real prof. so he still cannot choose weapon-enhancing feats such as ImprCritical or WFocus in them for example. It's very much in line with the idea of a Fighter after all.

This was intentional too.

Here I really disagree. These category are too wide, try at least to restrict them more.

I'm not sure what you are looking for here. Bows and crossbows only covers about 6 weapons. Staves, spears, and polearms does cover about 10 weapons, but the differences between about half of them are mainly cosmetic. You may have a point about the group with axes, hammers, maces, etc. I'll probably make them two groups. I can probably make swords their own group. However, I don't know if you considered this or not, but that flat bonus looks really piddly when you don't fight using your chosen style.

I missed how the Ftr selects one style. Is having 1 feat of a style enough to "belong" to the style (and getting the general style's ability)? Each of those abilities are definitely better than a feat, keep in mind that.

You don't pick the style feats to belong to the style. The style you use is determined by the feats you pick. I intentionally made the style feats better than normal feats because, well, these are fighters, and in their chosen style they are supposed to be better than everyone else who tries to fight in the same style. The benefits of the style are heavily situational and in several cases are mutually exclusive.

Elusive is just too good, I'd ban it straightforward (but again, if there's no magic armor at all in your game it's ok since these feats restricts you to light armors).

See comment above regarding equipment.

Flurry is ok if it works as Rapid Shot with melee attacks, but you should clarify what that "cumulative" means, here it sounds like you can have 2 extra attacks for twice the penalty and so on...

Yep. Eventually it won't be worth it taking too many extra attacks unless you are facing hordes of faceless vermin.

Riposte is very powerful again, I'd limit to 1/round no matter the Combat Reflexes.

Once again, it's highly situational. The thing about a riposte is that it is a quick, deadly counterattack. I may increase the prerequisites, though.

Crushing Blow is completely out of question: if I understand it, with an axe (crit x3) if you have +4 in Str the critical becomes x7???? Forget about it, think of what someone could do by using this together with the other style feat that automatically makes a critical!

Few things:
1st- Crushing Blow cannot be used with Vital Strike. It's just not worth it because Vital Strike can only be used with light weapons. A character who really wanted this combination as fast as possible and had the best of luck when rolling or point-buying attributes still has to be at least 10th level to use this combination of abilities. Even so, the most powerful weapon available for this character would be the rapier. However, I may clarify Crushing Blow and say that it can only be used with slashing or bludgeoning weapons. I find it hard to conceive of delivering a crushing blow with a dagger.
2nd- If you mean the Opportunist ability, once again, it's highly situational, and besides, by the time you would be able to use it, you'll have to be at least 16th level to use it that way.
3rd- Crushing blow does not increase the critical multiplier. It allows you to add your Strength bonus to the base damage before applying the multiplier. So, it would be (ndx + STR bonus) x crit. multiplier. Or, better yet, it'd be: (base damage x crit multiplier) + (STR bonus x crit multiplier). If a fighter with Strength 18 delivered a crushing blow with a rapier and rolled a 6 for the damage die, the total damage would be: 20 damage. If it were a +5 rapier, it'd be 25 damage.
4th- I'll probably include a few words about how magic items interact with these abilities. Basically, you tack them on at the very end, unless they give an enhancement bonus to attributes relevant to the ability being used. So, you apply the bonus to attacks with magical weapons after tallying the bonuses from feats, style feats, etc. You apply the damage of magical weapons after you tally up everything else.

All extremely munchkin ('xept Blind Shot which is totally overriden by Improved Precise Shot if you have prereq), with the base ability being the most. You must be a fan of archers.

I am not.

I am not saying this class is perfect, but if you are going to throw around a term like munchkin, could you substantiate your claim?

I also don't like the idea of actions which provoke AoO only if they miss, normally AoO interrupts the action and if successful may even disrupt it.

This seems like a contradiction. How do you not provoke an AoO when you provoke an AoO? If they miss, they provoke an AoO, which would disrupt the action, as they would with anything else.

My interpretation of this is that if you miss, you are distracted, and thus provoke an attack of opportunity if you are in a threatened area.

Again all on the powerful edge, but more acceptable. I don't understand what's the difference between Cunning Defense and Improved Cunning Defense.

Somehow, this got left out when I was writing Cunning Defense: You apply your Intelligence bonus to AC when fighting defensively.

 

[Li Shenron]

3rd- Crushing blow does not increase the critical multiplier. It allows you to add your Strength bonus to the base damage before applying the multiplier. So, it would be (ndx + STR bonus) x crit. multiplier. Or, better yet, it'd be: (base damage x crit multiplier) + (STR bonus x crit multiplier).

IIRC this is already what happens without the feat. The STR bonus to damage IS multiplied in a critical hit. Unless you mean the feat to let you apply it twice (but only in crits).

I am not saying this class is perfect, but if you are going to throw around a term like munchkin, could you substantiate your claim?

You are going to find out yourself at the first player who wants to be an archer.

This seems like a contradiction. How do you not provoke an AoO when you provoke an AoO? If they miss, they provoke an AoO, which would disrupt the action, as they would with anything else.

My interpretation of this is that if you miss, you are distracted, and thus provoke an attack of opportunity if you are in a threatened area.

I mean that if action provokes an AoO it always (core rules actions) provokes it no matter if the action is successful or not. Furthermore, some actions which provoke AoO can also be disrupted if the AoO is successful.

An action which provokes an AoO only when unsuccessful doesn't appeal me much especially if the action is very very good, and I'd rather let it provoke the AoO in any case, and perhaps even be disrupted if the AoO is successful. This to better balance the actions's benefit with the risk. You can make an additional feat not to provoke the AoO.

 

[Golem2176]

As per Li Shenrons' response, this is too powerful. IMHO, it would fare better as a PrC with some serious prereqs. If you have $6 buy the Arcana Unearthed Way of the Sword PDF from RPGNow. Check out the Unfettered class, it may be to your liking.

 

[Coredump]

I agree that this class is TOO powerful, the feats are too powerful, and too numerous. For the most part, they have been pointed out, and you have disagreed, so be it.

One thing, you *have* to take into account magic and equipment available; that is what balancing a class is all about.

Good Luck

 

[Afrodyte]

I've since revised my alt.fighter, and I have edited my initial post above. The main changes are:

You no longer belong to a style simply by picking style feats. Players have to declare which styles they will focus on, and they only get the fringe benefit of one style. More detail is given above.

I have deleted the additional bonus feats.

I've refined the offensive tactics ability.

I've altered the weapon groups for the weapon mastery ability.

I revised how Crushing Blow works. The marksman has been toned down a bit, and I clarified how strategists can use their abilities.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

A few comments:

1. I like the new skill list. However, it would seem appropriate to add Handle Animal to the list. Mounted fighters have to know how to take care of their horses as well as ride them and many may want to know how to train them. Also most fighters will want to be able to handle the pack mules in the baggage train.

2. Weapon Sense--this is a rather odd ability since fighters are already proficient with most weapons. The only thing it really does is let fighters use exotic weapons without penalty at high levels. (Although it's also without the WS, GWS, WF, GWF bonusses so most fighters wouldn't choose to do so). What's the point? Are you reducing the number of proficiencies fighters get?

3. Styles: What does a major style mean and what does a minor style mean?

4. Defensive fighter--this seems like a rather odd ability. Its penultimate benefit makes a lot of fighter feats (Imp Disarm, Imp Sunder, Imp Trip) redundant. Turning Fighting Defensively into a kind of superior expertise for fighters also emasculates Combat Expertise. (Why take -5 to gain a +5 bonus to AC when you can take -2 to gain +6?)

5. Offensive tactics--this is a fairly neat ability, but the damage should be multiplied on crits just like all other damage. Creating a new kind of damage bonus that doesn't multiply adds confusion into an already complex system.

6. Weapon Mastery is a good ability. However, some of the categories are perhaps overly broad. Swords and knives for instance covers everything from kukris to greatswords. (You might cut it down to slashing blades and piercing blades or small blades and large blades). It also comes very late in a fighter's career. I'd consider making this an incremental ability so that weapon focus applies across the category at some level, weapon specialization at another level, etc. (Starting at 5th level and adding another feat every four levels would yield a good spread).

7. Elusive: Not bad in a low magic campaign; excessive in a standard magic campaign. Combined with Defensive tactics, you'll likely see ACs in the 50's on a regular basis (+9 armor (+5 mithral chain shirt), +6 dex, +6 shield (+5 buckler), +5 deflection (ring), +5 natural amor (amulet), +6 Elusive, + 6 Defensive Tactics=AC 53 on a very very basic build)

8. Flurry: Is this restricted to light weapons? If not, you'll have the very odd sight of fighter/barbarians taking the Fencer style and flurrying with a greatsword.

9. Riposte: This might work in a low magic campaign, in a high magic campaign, the ability to get very low cost AC will mean that it almost always kicks in.

10. Vital Strike: Not on your life! Not counting magical critical hit effects (can we say Vorpal?), any munchkin worth his salt is going to pick up a scythe (it's not restricted to light weapons), a level of sorceror for true strike, and power attack the living daylights out of any and all comers. Even if you restrict it to light weapons (and thus rule out 3.5e power attack), he's still going to pick up a Thundering light pick.

11. Devastating blow: Well, now I know what that munchkin's second style is going to be! Vital strike+Devastating Blow+x4 crit weapon

12. Sneaky Shot: How, exactly do you make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon when you don't threaten anyone? If this allows you to make an AoO any time someone within 30' provokes, that's ridiculous. If it allows you to take AoOs within your standard melee threat range, it's a bit more balanced.

13. Size up: Why? It's fairly easy to figure this kind of stuff out from whether or not they hit you and how much damage they do. This should be a standard function of Sense Motive not a feat.

14. Opportunist?!? You've got to be kidding! Sign every fighter/wizard, fighter/shadowdancer, fighter/rogue, etc in the world up for this feat and make sure to buy as much stock in scythe factories as you can afford. Blink (or hiding or Greater Invis or just plain winning initiative) + Opportunist+ x4 crit weapon (and, of course, vorpal, thundering, or energy burst if you can get them) will yield scores of dead opponents.

You'll notice that I'm especially harsh on the auto-crit feats. That's because they ignore the essential balancing point of critical features for D&D weapons--the threat range/multiplier balance. Theoretically a rapier and a heavy pick add exactly the same amount of damage due to criticals to a characters damage potential. The rapier adds 3 extra hits of damage over 20 attacks (depending upon confirmation rate of course) to the damage. The heavy pick does too. The difference is that the pick does it all at once and the rapier does it over three different attacks. Adding autocrit abilities (or fixed threat range extensions such as the 3.0 weapon master's ki critical or fixed multiplier extensions as has often been proposed on these boards) vitiates this balance by removing a part of that equation. I think these abilities would be better worded as doubling (or even tripling) the threat range of the weapon if you decide to keep them. As they are written, they're gimmes for the high crit multiplier weapons.

 

[Afrodyte]

A few comments:

1. I like the new skill list. However, it would seem appropriate to add Handle Animal to the list. Mounted fighters have to know how to take care of their horses as well as ride them and many may want to know how to train them. Also most fighters will want to be able to handle the pack mules in the baggage train.

As would just about anybody, so I can see your point.

2. Weapon Sense--this is a rather odd ability since fighters are already proficient with most weapons. The only thing it really does is let fighters use exotic weapons without penalty at high levels. (Although it's also without the WS, GWS, WF, GWF bonusses so most fighters wouldn't choose to do so). What's the point? Are you reducing the number of proficiencies fighters get?

I considered it, but decided against it. However, it also lets fighters use improvised weapons without penalty at high levels.

3. Styles: What does a major style mean and what does a minor style mean?

The concise definition is this: The primary style is the one a particular fighter is devoted to, the one that gives the nifty abilities. The secondary style is used to augment or complement the effectiveness of the first style. You only get the fringe benefit of the primary style.

4. Defensive fighter--this seems like a rather odd ability. Its penultimate benefit makes a lot of fighter feats (Imp Disarm, Imp Sunder, Imp Trip) redundant. Turning Fighting Defensively into a kind of superior expertise for fighters also emasculates Combat Expertise. (Why take -5 to gain a +5 bonus to AC when you can take -2 to gain +6?)

I don't see how it would be particularly relevent by then. The main benefit to the improved disarm, sunder, and trip by then would be the +4 bonus to the attempt, which means you would be more likely to successfully do those things even against an opponent considerably stronger than you.

5. Offensive tactics--this is a fairly neat ability, but the damage should be multiplied on crits just like all other damage. Creating a new kind of damage bonus that doesn't multiply adds confusion into an already complex system.

I toned that down deliberately so as not to make it overpowered, but I see your point.

6. Weapon Mastery is a good ability. However, some of the categories are perhaps overly broad. Swords and knives for instance covers everything from kukris to greatswords. (You might cut it down to slashing blades and piercing blades or small blades and large blades). It also comes very late in a fighter's career. I'd consider making this an incremental ability so that weapon focus applies across the category at some level, weapon specialization at another level, etc. (Starting at 5th level and adding another feat every four levels would yield a good spread).

This idea is sound. I probably would take your idea about swords and knives. I think it should go like this: 10th level (Weapon focus), 13th level (Weapon specialization), `14th level (Improved Critical), and 17th level (Greater Weapon Specialization.

7. Elusive: Not bad in a low magic campaign; excessive in a standard magic campaign. Combined with Defensive tactics, you'll likely see ACs in the 50's on a regular basis (+9 armor (+5 mithral chain shirt), +6 dex, +6 shield (+5 buckler), +5 deflection (ring), +5 natural amor (amulet), +6 Elusive, + 6 Defensive Tactics=AC 53 on a very very basic build)

I can't assume that DMs will let their players do something like this, though. I can't plan for every contingency, and trying to predict what magic items a particular DM will or won't allow, or what treasure may be given out, is an exercise in futility and frustration. You could say the same of trying to outmaneuver powergamers and munchkins.

8. Flurry: Is this restricted to light weapons? If not, you'll have the very odd sight of fighter/barbarians taking the Fencer style and flurrying with a greatsword.

I don't know why I didn't put that in there, but the fencer's abilities are limited to light weapons.

9. Riposte: This might work in a low magic campaign, in a high magic campaign, the ability to get very low cost AC will mean that it almost always kicks in.

Hm. I'll have to think of something else for this one.

11. Devastating blow: Well, now I know what that munchkin's second style is going to be! Vital strike+Devastating Blow+x4 crit weapon

Since you cannot use juggernaut style feats with light weapons, that's highly unlikely.

12. Sneaky Shot: How, exactly do you make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon when you don't threaten anyone? If this allows you to make an AoO any time someone within 30' provokes, that's ridiculous. If it allows you to take AoOs within your standard melee threat range, it's a bit more balanced.

The only thing that's different about sneaky shot and regular attacks of opportunity is that sneaky shot allows you to make an attack of opportunity with a ranged weapon. That's it.

13. Size up: Why? It's fairly easy to figure this kind of stuff out from whether or not they hit you and how much damage they do. This should be a standard function of Sense Motive not a feat.

It is a Sense Motive check, but modified by your BAB because of the training you have. In combat, fighters should be able to do more with Sense Motive than, say, any other class that is not primarily a combat class. I did not make Sense Motive a class skill because of the limited uses I wanted fighters to have with it (only in combat), so I kept it cross-class and added this.

As far as why, it's mainly to avoid getting in over your head before you are at the verge of death.

You'll notice that I'm especially harsh on the auto-crit feats. That's because they ignore the essential balancing point of critical features for D&D weapons--the threat range/multiplier balance. Theoretically a rapier and a heavy pick add exactly the same amount of damage due to criticals to a characters damage potential. The rapier adds 3 extra hits of damage over 20 attacks (depending upon confirmation rate of course) to the damage. The heavy pick does too. The difference is that the pick does it all at once and the rapier does it over three different attacks. Adding autocrit abilities (or fixed threat range extensions such as the 3.0 weapon master's ki critical or fixed multiplier extensions as has often been proposed on these boards) vitiates this balance by removing a part of that equation. I think these abilities would be better worded as doubling (or even tripling) the threat range of the weapon if you decide to keep them. As they are written, they're gimmes for the high crit multiplier weapons.

Since this seems to be the substance of your objections to some abilities, I'll address them here. I didn't want to just increase the threat range because I wanted to avoid criticisms like, "then why take improved critical?" However, increasing the threat range of weapons is a sound idea. I'll probably do that.