One Column vs Two Columns and other questions
- Thread starter nightprowler4321
- Start date
nightprowler4321
First Post
I don't think it is so much amateurish as I did pay an artist from another pdf company quite alot of money, as I think nowdays in the rpg, people expect you to have an picture of some great monster or a character with the scenery in the background. You look really hard at all the covers at rpg and their overglossed with characters and monsters. I know they sell, its what I call "conan art". Again that old adelage you can only buck the system so far and people are afraid to scoot from the traditional. As I had said in an earlier message, we don't want that association of "another hero book, race book or character book" by the picture. We want people to know that this is a book on the wilds, hence the picture of the snow covered trees. we want people to look at it and say "brr, chilly, imagining dying in those woods" or we want some people to convey "I love the snow and woods, romping though snowdrifts 10 feet high" with the danger that one of those snowdrifts could have an old hunters trap covered up by the snow of the drift is actually the beginning of a cliff. Again, people were right about the title and we are working on it.GMSkarka said:
I was referring to traditionaly most people use the two columns for material and it seemed that when we submitted the one column, though I didnt specify did I In our case? When we was told to to tweak the layout, we did. We moved pictures around, moved tables, use the rule of thirds, the imaginary line, made sure that pictures were on the right hand side, that there was no odd text surrounding them and so on. We really cleaned up the product following the rules for one column then resubmitted it. It took an whole weekend to do and for the record I don't have amatuer editors. One worked for a newspaper in Kansas, one does editing of local newspaper in Scotland and the other has done numerous editing projects for game companies, but he is rather new so he didn't get to edit alot of the first book, though he got to look it over. We even changed our body text from a true font to san seriff true font just like the books they send you to do. See, we did read the materials.
Here is the reply we got back from rpgnw of which the artwork has already been talked about in messageboards so we will leave that one out.
"What changes did you make? The cover appears the same and the text does as
well."
-sage
I was going to address the one column vs two column in a different thread but since you brought it up I will give it a whirl. The above message tells me that the reviewer looked at the same few pages instead of the whole book and seemed to assume that everything remainded the same. By now, it probably popped into your head, He (Our product) used the one column and that brought up a flag, even though we have stated in our goals and almost every decription that we make pdf for primarily the online gamers.
Sure we know that the online gamer is many different things, roleplayer in real time one day, online gamer the next and card flopper the next. Still, we have quite alot of online gamers who said they would buy our product because they game primarily online. The point I'm trying to make here is some online gamers prefer the one column instead of the double column, at least the ones we polled and playtested with. If your an online company that sells primarily to online gamers, you go with what will give you the happiest medium. To us that medium was producing a high quality rules material sourcebook for the online gamer, thus the one column.
Now it shouldn't matter to the reviewer whether it was one two or three columns if he knew why it was produced that way. He should be fair and judge the book the way a normal reviewer does. My point is if the one column is so bad, then why do we have a demand of it not only from online gamers, but regular gamers as well. I understand and its been discussed the pro's and cons of one column. I can see everyone's pro and con in a logical way. In otherwords, those that made statements for and against didnt make the statements out of rash thought. I believe everyone gave reason for and against.
Here is an quote taken directly from the pdf creator on one columns to further clarify my point- This is from Chapter 5 : Layout and design: Step by Step of the pdf creator that rpgnow sends; One-Column layouts, where the text flows from the left margin
to the right margin, are mostly reserved for narrative portions of text, such as flavor fiction, chapter introductions and stories. They’re the best way to let a reader sink into the material
a bit deeper, taking more time to absorb what’s being said.
Because of this, the text is usually a bit larger – between 12-16 points of font size, depending on what font you use and your margins. Don’t go too big unless the font warrants it; no one wants to see 22-point text in your PDF, even if it fits. A good option is the 12-point size in which this document is laid out, which means we fit about 15-16 words, and about 80 characters on a line.
One of the keys to effective use of this layout is placement of artwork. If you’re writing a story, you don’t want to break it up awkwardly with graphics just splashed willy-nilly in the center of the text, disrupting the reader. Keep graphics off to one side – generally upper right or lower left, or else faded back as a background image.
One of the advantages to this sort of layout is that since everything’s in one column, we don’t get the column-bounce with a Portrait-aligned layout. Your reader only has to scroll
down once.
ePublisher PDF Creator
page 62
Last line-Bingo! That being said, and being it was written from a guy that had or still is working at rpgnow implies that a one column rpg is ok if you follow the rules. True, the reviewer may of never checked this or he may assumed if you want to be good go with the two column or hell everyone who turns in a one column to him might automatically get the axe. I doubt any of these, as rpgnow I can assume has probably has quite alot of game experience. However, it seems that the case with us was a double jepordy and that if you turn in a one column it will be flagged and that you need to turn in a double column but we (rpgnow) will still continue to put this section of one column in our pdf creator book.
Your probably saying you know Dan (thats me) he may of looked at your book and the body work may of been not up to standards. I would glady let someone review the book and I plan on talking to Phil Reed if he is still doing reviews, but I will need to know about confidentality agreements and all that and I want at least get this book done the "traditional way" first.
Back to the problem at hand. I know that my book entitled The Wilds-There and Back is good enough to earn the d20 system label. We been working on it for three years making sure the material is srd and ogl. Many people tell us it is an easy read. That doen't say that it might have a mistake here or there (I think we got them all) or it hard on the eyes or that some of the material is not what a player is looking for, etc. Most just said its an easy read and they can grasp the whole concept well. For the record its not written at 8th grade mentality either. At one time on the read stats you can opt for it was at 14th level, which means it was equivalent in wordage and understanding of two years in colledge. Naturally I backed the big words off and understanding so that an average 10th grader (which is one of our target audiences) can understand.
So in short, heh heh, I feel we got flagged for primarily using the one column and if we did, why put something about it in the books about one column they send. It would be easier and most certainly not cause so much trouble, if they would say something like, we really prefer the two column layout to the single because of yada, yada yada. I'm sure I'm not the first or the last that sent in a single column rpg that got flagged.
Some of you are probably also saying you know Dan if your unhappy with them, there is other pdf companies out there, they might charge alittle more, you may not get the coverage you want, but they are growing companies and they might be more up your alley.
We have kept our options open, why just advertise at rpgnow, the more you diversify the better you are. Its just that everyone would like to see their product there. I know you have to jump through hoops so to speak if you want your product there. It is their company, their rules and so forth and yes maim, no sir, your right sir, we will do that so the two column it is and whatever else they ask. Hopefully we can make the transition fast before my design team starts to grumble. They want to see this though as much as I do, all though we have been selling at other companies who does what rpgnow does with limited success, so our cookies hasn't entirely crumbled yet.
This is probably why there is some merit as to why the major game designer who used to sell his stuff there no longer does. Course, he can afford to pull his products, but perhaps like with us there was some rules consistency that he didnt agree with.
For all this partial rant is worth, but it does have the truth in it, rpgnow is a good company and I can respect why they have standards, but to convince me that our product got looked at unbiasely (I'm talking about the whole product) is a hard pill to swallow. I might be chewing the fat here, but I tried to present factually why we felt this way not any other way.
nightprowler4321
First Post
GMSkarka said:
I read and had my staff read all the material presented. Some are very helpful, look at the reviews of those products, first there is only like 16 comments and most gives it about average, so it makes you wonder. However, I try to do my homework.
I got all that you listed and more under the epublisherd20OGl zipped file, I was given these files: action system, anime d20 srd, d20 modern srd, d20 std, eaba osl, OGL, SRD and of course the pdf epublisherd20OGL. In the pdf creator zipped file, I was given backgrounds, d20 OGL, forms example, interactive test, stylesheets and the actual pdf creator.
Perhaps you have an older zipped file and those were not added in there at the that time. Now I thought at the time I signed up, the email said something like you will be receiving a bonus along with the afore mentioned products, but that could of been another email too, and I wasn't paying that close attention.
arwink
Clockwork Golem
nightprowler4321 said:
Look at the comments you've gotten on the thumb nails so far - the issues that most people are pointing to have little to do with the artwork, they have everything to do with the layout of your thumbnail (and, I'm assuming, the front cover of your product).
As for your problems with getting the one column layout up on RPGnow, I'm going to be blunt. A few people have commented on your posts being hard to read on this thread and in others, partially due to formating issues, and yet they continue to appear as solid blocks of text. This hardly inspires me with confidence on your choices in the product - even if the products are being laid out by someone else, you're the representative of the company that's visible here.
Your quote from the E-Publisher guide mentions a number of other important concerns alongside the note you're using to support your space, most of which are included in the excerpt you've put here. Single-column layout is easier to scroll around with on the screen, but it can also prove problematic when you're reading and comprehending large chunks of text at one time. It's also immersive, inviting the reader to plunge into the text and process everything at once like a short story, which isn't necessarily all that great for the quick scanning that's necessary for most game rules. I'd also suggest looking at your interior layout once again to be sure that the problem is with the single column rather than other isssues with the layout that you're overlooking.
One of the best pieces of advice I got when I was studying was to know *why* conventions are in place before trying to break them. Innovation is a great thing, but unless it's informed by practice and understanding of whats gone before it often ends up reinventing the wheel.
Angel Tarragon
Dawn Dragon
Two columns at least. It easier to read and hard to lose your place.
MavrickWeirdo
First Post
nightprowler4321 said:
You have misunderstood what they suggested. Most of the people here are saying they Like the Artwork of the first cover, what they do not like is the Layout. (An illustrator makes an "image", a graphic designer combines the image with other elements, such as text. 2 different jobs.)
To put it more simply. When I looked at the link you provided, I could not read the title.
Being able to read the title is important.
When I looked at the 2nd link, I still could not read the title. (The picture is clearly different, but the title still has the same problem.)
Someone else made the suggestion that you reduce the image, so that there is a blank space at the top of the page, and then put the title in the blank space. That way you can still use the professional quality artwork of the first cover, but people would have a better chance of reading the title.
nightprowler4321 said:
"nightprowler", I work for RPGNow. I handle customer service emails for them, and I'm the guy who adds new publishers. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.
I had a longer reply here, but I've edited it. It's just not worth it. You seem much more interested in arguing your point than in trying to learn the right way to do things.
Last edited:
nightprowler4321
First Post
GMSkarka said:
I'm telling you that is what was sent to me in the zipped files, why would I make something up like that. I was totally surprised not that I will never use the anime srd or the action system, granted it might of been a mistake, it may of been intended for someone else, they may of gotten the name wrong, who knows but those files were sent along with the other stuff. How would I know about those files if they sent to me, that was the first time I ever saw the anime srd file, though I have heard of it. The same for the action system.
I just assumed that was either a bonus or normal procedure.
I will if you want send you a copy of the zipped file to prove it.
nightprowler4321
First Post
MavrickWeirdo said:
I had started another reply to a message board, but when I pointed out to the wife about the files I recieved in her hurry she did something. This is the closest quote I was going to answer with.
We are implementing changes to the cover and title as I has stated twice before in previous message boards. We are going reluctantry with the two columns, and we are keeping the one column rpg as well for our fans who demand the one columns for their online games, because most of them are DM who play online and who really prefer the one column. Naturally, we do not have to submit the one column layout to rpgnow, we can submit the other along with the changes.
haiiro
First Post
nightprowler4321 said:
It's a pretty bad advertisement for your products. I don't know who you are, or what you put out -- but if I found out after reading this, it would make me very unlikely to look any further. IMO, once you start writing professionally or publishing products, you should try to make sure that everything that you write in public is sharp, readable and proofread.
As far as the original question, I don't care whether a PDF has columns or not, as long as I can read a single page without scrolling up or down more than a little -- preferably not at all. Columns do tend to make text easier to parse, and since reading onscreen is a lot harder than reading a hardcopy, that's probably the way to go.
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