One Level Scale to Rule Them All?
- Thread starter M.L. Martin
- Start date
As long as they are able to pull this off without using any tables, I'm fine with that approach. It would be just like psionics with several different augment options.thundershot said:
But if they use tables it doesn't just sound like Rolemaster, it IS Rolemaster. And it's an absolutely terrible system: Well, you've got thirty spells: 10 of them are fireball: minor, least, lesser, greater, swarm of fireballs, twin fireball, long-range fireball, fireball trap, true fireball, true swarm of fireballs *yuck*.
The Souljourner
First Post
I think I would actually much rather have more spells of different levels than greater, lesser, major, minor, and supreme super deluxe double plus good versions of the same spells. Just smacks of lack of creativity to me. Does anyone really LIKE the fact that there's 9 summon monster spells? Not that I would want 9 uniquely named spells for that specific spell, per se.... but I think one fireball spell that can be cast at all spell levels would be BORING. Psionics are terrible that way... the psions in our parties only ever used like three abilities throughout their whole careers because they scaled infinitely. Oh look, another energy bolt. Yippee... how much does it do now? Ok.
Much more fun to try out *new* spells "hey look, I just got cone of cold *blam* cool!"
It's better in that you can have more interesting, unique effects, rather than the same thing over and over - now with more dice! Plus, it gives those low level slots a reason for sticking around. Maybe your fireball isn't useful against the golem, but acid arrow is!
The wide variety of spells is one of the great things about D&D. It's one of the reasons I'd never play a sorcerer or a warlock - they don't have nearly enough variety.
-Nate
Much more fun to try out *new* spells "hey look, I just got cone of cold *blam* cool!"
It's better in that you can have more interesting, unique effects, rather than the same thing over and over - now with more dice! Plus, it gives those low level slots a reason for sticking around. Maybe your fireball isn't useful against the golem, but acid arrow is!
The wide variety of spells is one of the great things about D&D. It's one of the reasons I'd never play a sorcerer or a warlock - they don't have nearly enough variety.
-Nate
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thundershot
Adventurer
What I meant was, instead of having a fireball-esque spell every other level, have ONE fireball spell that increases in power as YOU gain level, instead of having to prepare tons of worthless low level spells when you're 20th level. 3E did this to some extent, but they capped off after a point. At 20th level, you'd never use most of your 2nd level spells because you have so many BETTER spells. So instead of having tons of fire spells, keep one, and save room for DIFFERENT spells.
The Souljourner
First Post
I can understand that at 20th level you'll never cast Burning Hands. If it ever gets to the point where you're thinking about casting Burning Hands, you're probably already dead.
And I do think they'll address that. I'm guessing that most of your vancian spell slots will be for your highest level spells, and most of the low level spells you'll get per encounter and at will.... I think they've also talked about retraining, so hopefully you'll be able to change out that burning hands for something more utilitarian from the low levels and leave the blasting spells in your high levels (with a couple in your per-encounter spells, so you don't run out).
I'd really like to see a similar set of spells stay available... I like the differences between fireball, burning hands, scorching ray, flame arrow, and meteor swarm. While certainly some are more powerful than others, there are definitely times when I'd rather have a scorching ray or a flame arrow than a fireball.... I like the variety, I like having lots of stuff to choose from so things don't get boring.... and not just per character, but from one campaign to the next.
More spells is better. I think if they use retraining to address the useless lower level slots, then we don't have to worry about burning hands taking up "space" in your character's repetoire.
-Nate
And I do think they'll address that. I'm guessing that most of your vancian spell slots will be for your highest level spells, and most of the low level spells you'll get per encounter and at will.... I think they've also talked about retraining, so hopefully you'll be able to change out that burning hands for something more utilitarian from the low levels and leave the blasting spells in your high levels (with a couple in your per-encounter spells, so you don't run out).
I'd really like to see a similar set of spells stay available... I like the differences between fireball, burning hands, scorching ray, flame arrow, and meteor swarm. While certainly some are more powerful than others, there are definitely times when I'd rather have a scorching ray or a flame arrow than a fireball.... I like the variety, I like having lots of stuff to choose from so things don't get boring.... and not just per character, but from one campaign to the next.
More spells is better. I think if they use retraining to address the useless lower level slots, then we don't have to worry about burning hands taking up "space" in your character's repetoire.
-Nate
Reaper Steve
Explorer
First...I love it!
Second, I think (like some others) that mentioning 25th level spells is more misdirection. My guess is that spell levels are 1-30, just like character levels.
You're excited now about 25th level spells, and you can be excited again when they say they really go to 30!
I do hope they axe 0-level spells, to keep it nice and clean.
Second, I think (like some others) that mentioning 25th level spells is more misdirection. My guess is that spell levels are 1-30, just like character levels.
You're excited now about 25th level spells, and you can be excited again when they say they really go to 30!
I do hope they axe 0-level spells, to keep it nice and clean.
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Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
^^ I hope 0-levels are still in in some form ... cantrips are fun!
My prediction: spread current and epic spells over 30 levels; one charcter level = one spell level. So a fifth level wizard can cast level five spells and below. Current spell lists are split, so that, for example, less powerful 1st level spells are still 1st level spells, and more powerful 1st level spells are 2d level spells. Current 2d level spells become 3rd & 4th level spells, 3rd become 5th and 6th, etc.
Now here's the trick ... at level N, a certain number A of (N-x) level spells are at will; a number B of (N-y) spells are per encounter, and a number C of (N-z) spells are per day -- where x > y > z and A > B > C. I'd bet 0-level spells rapidly become "at will" abilities. The question is how many of each A/B/C, and what ratio of x/y/z to make the system balanced, keep things interesting, but not make wizards too overpowered. For example, you might start with A = Level + ability mod, B = 1/2 Level + ability mod, and C = 2 + ability mod with X = 4, y = 2, z=0 (and let's assume zero levels go to 5 + ability mod). With those number, a 5th level wizard with Int 16 (+3) would likely have:
- 8 "0-level" spells at will
- 8 "1-level" spells at will
- 5 "2- and 3-level" spells per encounter, and
- 5 "4- and 5-level" spells per day
As you rise in elvel, the number of "at will" abilities increases slightly, but you can increase them in power; the net number of per encounter and per day abilities increases less quickly but they can also increase in power.
My prediction: spread current and epic spells over 30 levels; one charcter level = one spell level. So a fifth level wizard can cast level five spells and below. Current spell lists are split, so that, for example, less powerful 1st level spells are still 1st level spells, and more powerful 1st level spells are 2d level spells. Current 2d level spells become 3rd & 4th level spells, 3rd become 5th and 6th, etc.
Now here's the trick ... at level N, a certain number A of (N-x) level spells are at will; a number B of (N-y) spells are per encounter, and a number C of (N-z) spells are per day -- where x > y > z and A > B > C. I'd bet 0-level spells rapidly become "at will" abilities. The question is how many of each A/B/C, and what ratio of x/y/z to make the system balanced, keep things interesting, but not make wizards too overpowered. For example, you might start with A = Level + ability mod, B = 1/2 Level + ability mod, and C = 2 + ability mod with X = 4, y = 2, z=0 (and let's assume zero levels go to 5 + ability mod). With those number, a 5th level wizard with Int 16 (+3) would likely have:
- 8 "0-level" spells at will
- 8 "1-level" spells at will
- 5 "2- and 3-level" spells per encounter, and
- 5 "4- and 5-level" spells per day
As you rise in elvel, the number of "at will" abilities increases slightly, but you can increase them in power; the net number of per encounter and per day abilities increases less quickly but they can also increase in power.
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Reaper Steve
Explorer
I like that, Olgar.
And it's not that I want 0-level spells to up and vanish, but I would prefer them to be rewickered into the 1-30 scheme, or just called 'Cantrips' as opposed to 0-level.
And it's not that I want 0-level spells to up and vanish, but I would prefer them to be rewickered into the 1-30 scheme, or just called 'Cantrips' as opposed to 0-level.
Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
Reaper Steve said:
Well, I guess you could make 0-level spells = 1st level, 1st level = 2/3 level, etc ... but then 1st level wizards would have less interesting abilities than today (imagine waiting for level 3 for magic missile!) which probably would be a tough sell. Plus I thikn 0-levels are perfect "at will" abilities for a 1st level wizard. Detect magic at will isn't game breaking, and an acid splash or similar would always be available as a weapon when you run out of per encounter/per day spells at 1st level.
With that structure, you'd have to moneky a bit with casting times and metamagic so the wizard doesn't overwhelm everyone else with "at will" abilities -- for example, all "at will" abilities might be standard actions; you could only apply metamagic to per encounter or per day abilities, or if you use them on an at will ability, it counts as a per encounter or per day use.
There'd have to be a lot of refining of the numbers to make it work smoothly at all levels, but if I were redesigning the spell system to keep a similar feel while eliminating many of the Vancian "preparation" mechanics while always giving the spellcaster some magic to throw, this is the approach I'd take.
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Acts
First Post
Rodney, I love you
I'm breathless. Mainly because I have a gamer at the table who says things like "I now know spells from the 5th circle".... Bugs me. Now, he has to say "I know spells from the 17th circle", and he'll either realize how dumb that sounds, or he'll just fumble right over it (while I laugh, on the inside).
The original magic missile? A second level spell now?
I'm breathless. Mainly because I have a gamer at the table who says things like "I now know spells from the 5th circle".... Bugs me. Now, he has to say "I know spells from the 17th circle", and he'll either realize how dumb that sounds, or he'll just fumble right over it (while I laugh, on the inside).
The original magic missile? A second level spell now?
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