One session, a ton of alignment issues...

[Arravis]

Here is the situation:
The party and their alignments: LG monk (Ilmater), CG rogue, N sorceress, CN fighter/sorcerer, & CN dwarven fighter.

The campaign is based out of Waterdeep (in the Forgotten Realms), where the party owns a small villa. The group has finally returned to the city after being away for several weeks. They went to the villa only to find that someone was hosting a masquerade party, and pretending to be the adventuring party itself. The group disguises itself and infiltrates the festivities as costumed guests. There, they find that the impostors are nabbing overly drunk guests and bringing them down to a pair of yuan-ti pureblood slavers in the basement.

The yuan-ti are dealt with and the group captures several of the impostors, knocking them unconscious. At this time, the PC's make their presence known in the villa party and the last two impostors approach the group. They parley, the impostors explaining that they only wish to leave the situation now that the PC’s are here. The impostors propose that they’ll answer any questions the PC’s have if the rest of their family, which is unconscious in the basement, is released. This deal is only tacitly made; the party never actually said they would agree to it.

Questions are asked and all are answered to the best of their ability. The PC’s find out that the impostors are a family doppelgangers, and part of a larger organization of the creatures (The Unseen, for those curious). They find out that the doppelgangers were hired by one of the group’s enemies in order to ruin the reputation of the group in the city. Slaves were to be taken, and then some allowed to “escape” in order to spread the word that the group was involved in slavery. After a bit more questioning, the dwarven fighter enters the situation, showing disdain for the doppelgangers, expressing that they are evil parasites, that at the least they should be turned to the city guard or be killed outright.

At this point the monk agrees to turn them in to the guard. As a DM, I’m not sure how I feel about this… they party never explicitly agreed to the “deal” forwarded by the doppelgangers, but the party did ask questions and all were answered. Would that be a tacit agreement to the deal? Does it matter for a LG monk? I’m not sure… opinions on this would be welcome, but lets continue.

More questions are asked of the doppelgangers, including how they learned so much of the PC’s. The lead doppelganger goes to explain that they spoke to many of their friends, and while doing so he took the shape of the rogue’s love interest in the campaign, a young noblewoman. At this the juvenile elven rogue is overwhelmed with emotion, secretly draws a rather wicked dagger (flesh-grinding, from the Book of Vile Darkness), and with a fierce cry suddenly strikes at the unarmed doppelganger. The question here is, how would this affect the alignment of the rogue? Chaotic Neutral now, or… Chaotic Evil?

The magical dagger continues to burrow into the creature as the rogue attempts to make his escape from the room. The monk is torn between helping the doppelganger and stopping the fleeing rogue. He commands the sorceress to help the doppelganger as he himself attempts to subdue the rogue. The rogue escapes the grapple and runs down the hall to leave. The monk commands the dwarven fighter to “secure the room”, as the monk gives chase after the rogue.

The sorceress has tried a dispel magic on the dagger, but to no avail. The dwarven fighter grabs the dagger that’s imbedded in the doppelganger and pushes in, to finish the creature (again… not sure what to do on the alignment issue here). The sorceress watches in horror and the monk finally returns, giving up the chase (rogue used a ring of invisibility to flee). The monk commands the dwarf to stop, and he does so. The city watch is called, and the doppelgangers are arrested. This is more or less, where our last session ended.

There were a lot of alignment issues that were unclear to me… I think part of the reason for the muddiness is that I’m not sure where I stand on the issue of doppelgangers. They are a neutral race, but they are a societal parasite.

Lastly… the rogue wants to break into where the doppelganger is being held and kill him. How would this affect his alignment? My gut tells me evil, pure and simple, but others disagree (not people in the gaming group). The player has expressed that he’ll gladly take whatever judgment I deem appropriate, but I want to make sure I’m doing the right thing. What do you guys think? Well, thanks for any advice or tips.

-Arravis

 

[swrushing]

Shortest answer...

alignment is a trait derived from PC actions over time, taken as a whole.
One event or one evening will not change someone's alignment.

I tell my guys to "play their character" not ("play the alignment") and let things sort itself out.

if the monk continues over time to often give his word and go back on it and act in other unlawful ways as well, then you might start thinking about alignment change, start with discussion and such, making sure this is a deliberate choice the player is making (to change alignment) and not a disagreement.

But people are not ALWAYS consistent and people do not always follow every trait of their alignment.

you could for instance have an inveterate liar who is lawful. he just doesn't have the "tells truth and keeps word" parts of the alignment down.

 

[Sado]

A desire for revenge isn't necessarily evil, nor even is acting on it. It fits my idea of CN fairly well, not so much CG, but I could see the stretch-punishing the doppleganger could be construed as a "good" thing, especially givn the circumstances. If the rogue makes a habit of killing unarmed prisoners (who may or may not deserve it), then I might raise an eyebrow, but in this case I think it's workable.

As for the LG monk, wouldn't turning the criminals over to the guard be the appropriate thing to do according to the law? An agreement (implicit or no) in opposition to the law is NOT something I would expect a LG to uphold or agree to.

 

[Arravis]

Keep in mind as well that the doppleganger never hurt her, only spoke with her. So the creatures never actually hurt anyone (other then turning guests over to slavers). I see your point... I'd like to hear more opinions on it though.

 

[Mystery Man]

Word gets out around Waterdeep via the dopplegangers that the PC's don't keep to their word. Regardless of what should or should not have gone down or who did the right thing, the doppelgangers should feel they got burnt. Its going to make it harder for the PC's to parley with the criminal element in the future.

 

[Lareit]

Chaotic Act for Monk. Not enough for alignment change as he still uphold a bit of a law.
chaotic evil act for rogue. Not enough for alignment change due to emotional attachment involved.
Evil act for dwarf. He's the only one I think needs to be moved down a notch.
It's one thing to lash out in an emotional frenzy. Another thing to kick a man while he's down by further trying to murder him ruthlessly.

 

[Mallus]

I don't any problems...

Every characters action fit the situation. The CN rogue acted emotionally, a textbook 'crime' of passion. The LG monk was willing to hold off making a judgement, given the dopplegangers a chance to tell their side of the story.

But really, the PC's were violated, the dopplegangers were hired to do the violating, they hurt innocent people. At the very least the monk would turn them over to the authorities, and perhaps have a little compassion for the rogue, who clearly isn't as tough a nut...

Are you just trying to mess w/the PC's? Laudable, that, but they are better ways than misconstruing the alignment system into something that makes any believable, dramatic player action grounds for some kind of penaltly...

 

[derelictjay]

The monk, his action for the most part were lawful, though he did act a bit wishywashy, but not really was his actions against the grain.

The rogue, his actions were not good and not evil, but fit for the most part a character unhinged emotionally, the only evil action he took was the choice in weapon he used.

Now what the dwarf did, pushing the dagger in further, that was evil, and if the dwarf's done similar things in the past and continues to do them, its time to take his alignment down a notch to CE.

 

[John Morrow]

The party and their alignments: LG monk (Ilmater), CG rogue, N sorceress, CN fighter/sorcerer, & CN dwarven fighter.

[...]

There, they find that the impostors are nabbing overly drunk guests and bringing them down to a pair of yuan-ti pureblood slavers in the basement.

[...]

The impostors propose that theyll answer any questions the PCs have if the rest of their family, which is unconscious in the basement, is released. This deal is only tacitly made; the party never actually said they would agree to it.

[...]

Slaves were to be taken, and then some allowed to escape in order to spread the word that the group was involved in slavery. After a bit more questioning, the dwarven fighter enters the situation, showing disdain for the doppelgangers, expressing that they are evil parasites, that at the least they should be turned to the city guard or be killed outright.

Two things of note in this part of your story.

First, if the yuan-ti were going to keep some of the slaves, the dopplegangers were essentially setting innocent people up to be enslaved. While possibly but not necessarily Evil (see the recent thread about slavery and alignment for various takes on that issue), it's certainly not harmless fun just becaues the victims were saved or were simply NPCs.

Second, the dwarf may believe that the dopplegangers are evil parasites but the Monster Manual lists them as Neutral, meaning that there is nothing inherently Evil about your standard doppleganger or how they live. The dwarf can feel free to think of them however he wants but in the objective alignment scheme of D&D, they aren't inherently Evil.

At this point the monk agrees to turn them in to the guard. As a DM, Im not sure how I feel about this they party never explicitly agreed to the deal forwarded by the doppelgangers, but the party did ask questions and all were answered. Would that be a tacit agreement to the deal? Does it matter for a LG monk? Im not sure opinions on this would be welcome, but lets continue.

I think that if the dopplegangers were answering the questions with the understanding that a deal had been made, it should have been tacit approval as far as the monk was concerned. Ideally, the monk should have asked both sides for a clarification. The rest of the party can certainly justify their actions on technicalities all they want but I don't think the monk should.

At this the juvenile elven rogue is overwhelmed with emotion, secretly draws a rather wicked dagger (flesh-grinding, from the Book of Vile Darkness), and with a fierce cry suddenly strikes at the unarmed doppelganger. The question here is, how would this affect the alignment of the rogue? Chaotic Neutral now, or Chaotic Evil?

I would say that the problem here is not necessarily the attack but the weapon used to carry it out. I assume the weapon is Evil? While this may not have produced a full transformation to CE, frankly, it sounds like you've got a character just itching for a turn to the dark side, here. If I were an Evil enemy of this party, wanted to destroy it, and wanted to give it a bad reputation, and learned about this behavior, I'd arrange for the girlfriend's assassination to really push this boy over to the dark side and pit him against the others in the party. Ideally, her death would be carried out by someone accidentally hired, say, to deliver a gift full of poison, so that the rogue winds up exacting revenge on another innocent.

The dwarven fighter grabs the dagger thats imbedded in the doppelganger and pushes in, to finish the creature (again not sure what to do on the alignment issue here). The sorceress watches in horror and the monk finally returns, giving up the chase (rogue used a ring of invisibility to flee). The monk commands the dwarf to stop, and he does so. The city watch is called, and the doppelgangers are arrested. This is more or less, where our last session ended.

What was the dwarf's motive here?

There were a lot of alignment issues that were unclear to me I think part of the reason for the muddiness is that Im not sure where I stand on the issue of doppelgangers. They are a neutral race, but they are a societal parasite.

Being a societal parasite isn't necessarily Evil. In fact, it's plenty easy for a doppleganger to do good things while living as a human. You might want to consider this story:

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi856.htm

Lastly the rogue wants to break into where the doppelganger is being held and kill him. How would this affect his alignment? My gut tells me evil, pure and simple, but others disagree (not people in the gaming group). The player has expressed that hell gladly take whatever judgment I deem appropriate, but I want to make sure Im doing the right thing. What do you guys think? Well, thanks for any advice or tips.

If the issue is personal and the killing is quick, I'd say that he could stay CN. If the issue is racia and the methods cruel, it could very well be CE (certainly Chaotic either way). If he makes it through this CN, I'd have the party's enemies (the ones sophisticated enough to set up the doppleganger ruse) set up the death (or enslavement, if you want to pull some punches) of the girlfriend, perhaps using a doppleganger disguised as the rogue to lure her to her death, thus completing the rogues journey to the dark side...

 

[The_Gneech]

This reminds me of the story of the burglar who is injured breaking into somebody's house and then successfully sues the homeowner. The dopplegangers are wholly in the wrong here -- even if it's a neutral race, these individual specimens are clearly evil. On a case-by-case basis:

The monk was right in line with lawful good. He made no promises to anybody, was willing to hear what the dopplegangers had to say, and wanted to turn them over to the proper authorities. He also tried to keep things orderly when the rogue went berserk.

The rogue's actions were more Chaotic Foolish than anything else; it may be a nudge away from the light, but on the other hand, he was plenty provoked. It's not like he sat around thinking, "Y'know, I want to go slaughter some dopplegangers." They came after him!

The sorceress, from your description, was mostly following the monk's lead, which puts her in the N to NG range.

The dwarf was all over the map, which I suppose makes sense for CN. Attempting to finish off the doppleganger is pretty grim, tho. (Of course, Gimli says, "tell me what I want to know and I'll ease your passing," and nobody seems to think it was out of line. So that's debatable.)

As for the rogue breaking in to kill the doppleganger, I'm a bit mystified by this. What's his motivation? Did the doppleganger kill his love interest, or just assume her shape? If the former, it's a grim-but-reasonable action that might nudge him toward CN, but not evil. If the latter, it does seem way out of proportion.

-The Gneech