D&D 4E One thing I miss from 4e...the Saving Throws

[Otterscrubber]

I completely agree on that.

We should go back to 3 saves;

FORT,REF,WILL

Fort; str bonus + con bonus,
Ref; dex bonus + int bonus,
Will; wis bonus + cha bonus,

Raise all saves DC's by 1 to compensate for double ability to that save.

Make all str and con saves into fort saves,
All dex saves into reflex,
and all int, wis and cha saves into will saves,

give all classes one save proficiency. If they have con prof they get fort save, dex gives them ref save and wis gives them will saves.

I kinda like this

 

[VaGuS343]

I have a house rule for 5e which I am test running:

Bring back the 3 Fort Reflex & Will saves of 4e but calculate them thus:

Fort will be:
Your Con mod + your Str mod plus any prof mods all added up. then divided by 2 and rounded down.

Will saves will be calculated the same but keyed to Cha & Wis.

Reflex Saves; keyed to Dex & Int

 

[Charlaquin]

I have a house rule for 5e which I am test running:

Bring back the 3 Fort Reflex & Will saves of 4e but calculate them thus:

Fort will be:
Your Con mod + your Str mod plus any prof mods all added up. then divided by 2 and rounded down.

Will saves will be calculated the same but keyed to Cha & Wis.

Reflex Saves; keyed to Dex & Int

I think it would be easier to just make it 10 + [the lower of the two ability mods], + prof bonus. That takes both into account in a much less complex formula.

 

[Rune]

I have a house rule for 5e which I am test running:

Bring back the 3 Fort Reflex & Will saves of 4e but calculate them thus:

Fort will be:
Your Con mod + your Str mod plus any prof mods all added up. then divided by 2 and rounded down.

Will saves will be calculated the same but keyed to Cha & Wis.

Reflex Saves; keyed to Dex & Int

So, in most cases, players are going to only get half proficiency or none? I think at high levels, that’s going to make a big difference in the effectiveness of save-effects. Especially if you also apply that house-rule to the monsters’ saves.

Out of curiosity, what do you expect to gain out of this conversion? In 4e, NADs were calculated using the best applicable stat (meaning the players gained flexibility in assigning them). Here, the players are losing out in almost all of their previously good saves and gaining some in previously bad saves.

But that middle path is still going to lead to a lot of extra failures unless the DCs are adjusted to compensate. So I ask again, what is your design goal, here?

 

[Mannahnin]

I have been toying with a return to the three save system as well.

The main virtue I see in it is being more intuitive. in 5E which of the three mental stats applies to save against various spells is pretty arbitrary. Whereas organizing saves into the Fortitude/Reflex/Will division by means of resistance is almost always clear and easy.

Secondarily, I think it can be used to better balance the value of the ability scores, where today Dex, Wis, and to a lesser extent Con rule the roost.

In some ways I honestly think the original 5 save system has its virtues in terms of making saves primarily based on class and level, and only secondarily influenced by ability scores.

 

[Rune]

In some ways I honestly think the original 5 save system has its virtues in terms of making saves primarily based on class and level, and only secondarily influenced by ability scores.

And, importantly, without consideration of the power-level of the source being saved against.

 

[Undrave]

The reason D&D had two systems was because the saving throw really wasn't a routine defense like AC. It literally was a roll to save your ass when certain death was on the line. So it was in the hands of the player, not the attacker. And, as far as I'm concerned, it's best staying there.

That makes some sense when your Wizard is a Wizard for 5 seconds a day.

But characters in 5e can hand out magical attacks like a bowling player hands out unnecessary high fives. Magical effects happen ALL the time in modern versions of the game. It make more sense to treat them as nothing any different than a swing of an axe.

Of course, saying that chuffs at the ego of players who play Wizard to be SPECIAL.

I, too, think the Saving Throws return is 100% tradition with no deeper consideration. Not that you can't make a case for saving throws on OTHER grounds, but just at the 5e didn't even bother debating the point.

 

[Undrave]

I have been toying with a return to the three save system as well.

The main virtue I see in it is being more intuitive. in 5E which of the three mental stats applies to save against various spells is pretty arbitrary. Whereas organizing saves into the Fortitude/Reflex/Will division by means of resistance is almost always clear and easy.

Secondarily, I think it can be used to better balance the value of the ability scores, where today Dex, Wis, and to a lesser extent Con rule the roost.

In some ways I honestly think the original 5 save system has its virtues in terms of making saves primarily based on class and level, and only secondarily influenced by ability scores.

You could always combine the two and make Fort/Ref/Will a class-based ability, and maybe what class you are could tell you what attribute you can add to each of those (and if you multi class you get to pick from both class). Some combination would be synergetic with your attack stat, others not so much.

 

[el-remmen]

Just posting to say I agree and it does feel like a step backwards, from 5 saves to 3 saves to 6 saves seems wrong. Three with alternative choices about what stat to apply for each would be preferable to me.

Then again in 3E, I loved doing stuff like calling for a INT-based Reflex check.

 

[billd91]

I, too, think the Saving Throws return is 100% tradition with no deeper consideration. Not that you can't make a case for saving throws on OTHER grounds, but just at the 5e didn't even bother debating the point.

I don't think it's simply return to tradition with no deeper consideration. Inspiration, bardic inspiration, bless - all work really well under direction of the player making a saving throw roll.