One thing I REALLY liked about HERO over D&D

[Psion]

So, you know, claiming that HERo doesn't between editions/revisions change costs for balance and doesn't "effectively" nerf some normal, in genre, previously not a balance issue powers/components in order to handle the wingnut abuses possible... is not exactly accurate.

Not that i would dream of challenging the original premise of this thread with facts, mind you.

I don't think I have ever claimed that HERO never nerfs a power or that a power never needs it. If I came across that way, let me reassure you that is not my point.

My point is not that HERO always only stop signs a power. But rather, that D&D never does.

So please don't turn this thread into a system war. I like D&D/d20 just fine. But I do recognize the strengths in other games.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

So, you know, claiming that HERo doesn't between editions/revisions change costs for balance and doesn't "effectively" nerf some normal, in genre, previously not a balance issue powers/components in order to handle the wingnut abuses possible... is not exactly accurate.

I don't think I have ever claimed that HERO never nerfs a power or that a power never needs it. If I came across that way, let me reassure you that is not my point.

My point is not that HERO always only stop signs a power. But rather, that D&D never does.

I'm not sure I can explain my idea properly, but I'll try.

If I understood Psion's original post correctly, we are talking about design philosophies, not balance. The game designers have attempted to balance powers, skills, abilities, etc. within their respective systems. Tweaking those things (for instance, making a power more expensive or higher level) based on experience and feedback is appropriate. That's balance.

The philosophies behind the systems, however, are quite different. Where possible, Hero tends to allow potentially abusive powers and combinations, trusting the GM and players to deal with it. D&D tends to forbid powers and combinations once someone finds out how to abuse it. Note: these are tendencies only - there are exceptions in both systems.

Here's an example within Hero:

A character wants to take Desolidification and Invisibility. Added together both powers are very expensive. But a character with both would be basically unstoppable. He could sneak into practically anywhere, and would be impossible or almost impossible to find. And it's all legal within the rules. It's left up to the GM to decide whether to allow it and, if so, what limitations to place on it.

In D&D, such a combination would almost certainly be banned. The difference is in the basic design choices of the systems. Personally, I wish D&D would be more willing to allow such potential abuses, with warnings, but I accept that that probably won't happen.

 

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

Okay, some more facts. This is the second time someone either said "Hey, I like this about Hero" or "Tell me about Hero" and you have attacked out of the blue.

"Attacjed" as in disagreed with inaccurate statements... sure.
when did "challenging inaccurate statements" about systems become improper for discussion boards about games?

NO ONE supporting HERO on here has said "All other game systems blow chunks."

nor did i. I am sure there are a lot of other thinsg we did not say too.

Get over it and let people get answers without your outright rude and arrogant comments. You want to make this about being a martyr for your staunch attacks on Hero? Go for it. Hopefully no one else is buying into your complex.

actually i would prefer it not be about me at all but about accurate representations and inaccurate ones.

And yes, you said nothing here about d20. You were amply vociferous about it on the other thread where you railed against Hero.

so this isn't reall about this thread but about your feelings about me on another thread brought here by you.

gotcha.

 

[swrushing]

I don't think I have ever claimed that HERO never nerfs a power or that a power never needs it. If I came across that way, let me reassure you that is not my point.

My point is not that HERO always only stop signs a power. But rather, that D&D never does.

So please don't turn this thread into a system war. I like D&D/d20 just fine. But I do recognize the strengths in other games.

Ok well, i got a different impressions. After all, you stated that DND did this thing and then said HERo does this other... you certainly seemed to me to be highlighting this as an explicit difference.

So if i get you right now...

Both HERo and DnD will nerf powers between editions for balance.
Sometimes HERo will put stop signs or caution signs on powers they dont want to nerf but find troublesome.
Both HERo and DND will leave powers they don't find too problematic fine as is.

So, your big thing is that hero, for mid-range iffy-abusive power, will flag them with cautions. They just have a third category, for iffy powers.

OK thats fair.

 

[swrushing]

In D&D, such a combination would almost certainly be banned. The difference is in the basic design choices of the systems. Personally, I wish D&D would be more willing to allow such potential abuses, with warnings, but I accept that that probably won't happen.

Ok i confess to not being fully up on 3.5 stuff but in fact that combo is not banned. One can be invisible and ehtereal or incorporeal at the same time thru various combos of items and spells.

maybe you just chose a bad example?

Now to the basic point... and yes at this point i will defend D20 a little...

seak with dead and truth spells and alignment spells can wreck an unprepared GMs mystery story. They exist in DND. The same type of things could be stop signed in hero or at least glassed because of their impact on mystery stories.

gaseous form would be stop signed in HERo... its a standard third level spell in DND.

there are plenty of cases where powers which in HERo would be stop sign powers are normal things in DnD.

So, the evidence does not support that "what hero stop signs, DND bans." as a matter of philosophy or practice.

here is what the evidence supports...

both hero and DND toss out or nerf some powers between editions for balance.
both hero and DND have a large number of powers they find perfectly fine.

HERO has some powers it flags with a warning sign and leaves to Gm to decide whether or not to allow... and for those powers SOME in DND are nerfed while others are allowed. Since DnD doesn't have the "iffy category" specifically flagged, some are tossed in and others are tossed out.

NOTE: these flagged powers in HERo are flagged, at least some are, because they are abusive in SOME genres... whats fine for galactic supers might be broken for mystery X files... but HERo is generic and thus needs to keep in mind it doesn't know what setting... DND is a setting... so its not surprising it doesn't need to flag powers and can instead put them in or out... they KNOW what the game is... unlike HERO.

 

[Goblyn]

Ooh! ... you gotme.

So what you mean is that it would be cool if, say, weapon total bonuses weren't limited to +10, but they are limited because of balance reasons. Ok, that's clearer. It's not quite what Psion was talking about, though; since these things have been the way they are since day 1, certainly the fans have had no influence on them. Besides, I disagree with lots of them being cool (bigger inherent bonuses? Same as the buffs, more powerful but not more cool IMO. Just numbers).

You caught me ... I was straying off topic. They aren't things that I would consider cool, but things that IMO are in place not for any reason other than game balance.

 

[PCD]

Hmmm..."game balance"? It has little to do with the Game Mechanics and more to do with the player's playing the game. As Psion indicated HERO puts up various signs to get the players to *stop* and think. I like this about HERO too.

 

[WizarDru]

Ok i confess to not being fully up on 3.5 stuff but in fact that combo is not banned. One can be invisible and ehtereal or incorporeal at the same time thru various combos of items and spells.

maybe you just chose a bad example?

Well, when one is ethereal, they are, by definition, invisible. However, in D&D, being invisible and either ethereal or incorporeal isn't really that great of an adavantage, especially compared to a supers character in Hero. Ignoring differing genre conventions for a moment, the issue stands that being invisible isn't all that great in D&D. Unlike Hero (iirc) D&D incorporeality is only half effective, not true insubstanability. Being ethereal limits your vision to 60', which is a significant problem of it's own. Invisibilty and ethereality work poorly for purposes of remaining hidden are higher levels and are time limited, besides. It's my perception, being unfamiliar with the current version of Hero, that in Hero, this always active combo is decidely more useful, with fewer effective countersmeasures.

All of which is really relevant, of course, as D&D has plenty of potential pitfalls.

Personally, I'm somewhat mixed on the idea. On the one hand, it calls attention to potential flaws in the system to player and DM, be they abusers or not. I could actually see it backfire, by showcasing abuses to potential abusers, but overall I like the sentiment of trying to help the DM out.

At the same time, part of me thinks that if a potential abuse is present, why not rewire it so that the potentially abusive way is the variant, and not the other way around? It strikes me, somewhat, as highlighting a design flaw and then touting it as a feature, not a bug.

 

[swrushing]

Well, when one is ethereal, they are, by definition, invisible. However, in D&D, being invisible and either ethereal or incorporeal isn't really that great of an adavantage, especially compared to a supers character in Hero.

I disagree. Speaking from 3,0 and from memory here...

INCORPOREAL vs DESOLID

DnD incorporeality makes non-magical attacks ineffective entirely and all magical attacks (except force attacks) from corporeal sources miss 50% of the time. Contrast to HERo desolid where a "common" type of FX will affect you at 100% (one example given is, for instance magic.) and you are not too far off.

But moreover, while incorporeal in HERO all your attacks are ineffective, or were bought at 3x cost (+2 advantage for usable while desolid) whereas in DnD all your spells and such are fine and only your physical touch attacks are nerfed. This is a huge edge fr DND incorporeality.

both games have the ability to pass thru walls and barriers of normal sorts as an automatic thing.

if the range of sight thing is big enough to sweep aside the "can attack at ful, power" issue, thats a significant difference between our games.

INVISIBILITY vs INVISIBILITY

In DND if the enemy knows where you are and attacks, he has a 50% chance of missing flat out on any hit he rolls. In HERo if he hits, he hit.

In DND the spot check to notice where you are is pretty steep... starts around 20 and even rolls with listen to pinpoint your hex are also around 20ish, unless you are shouting or such. In HERO, all you need to do is make a listen check (typical odds start at 62% chance and go up) and you get the penalties much reduced. hero book not with me but the penalties go to something like -1 to hit or somesuch on your attacks against invisible guys you have made the realtively easy listen check or smell check against...

In DND you are invisible until you attack while in DND you are invisible until you get close to someone due to fringe. Both systems have more expensive/higher level versions that counter this.

In DND the spells (see invisible or glitterdust or invisibility purge) that counter invisibility are at the same level or higher and have durations on par. In HERO, the detect invisible power would cost half of the cost of invisibility the cheapest invis and would not take endurance.

I am sure there is more but, thats enough for now.

Enough theory...

in practice, in generalwhen playing hero, the penalties for invis after the enemy makes a non-targetting oer roll are not too severe and in fact, invisibility in combat is frequently not worth the hassle. More specifically, the value of "other sense group" targetting senses, given the frequency of flash and darkness attacks, makes normal invisibility very much a crap shoot as to whether its worth anything combat wise. of course this is highly subjective and dependent on the game scale and genre being run, but any game i ever ran in or ran, if invisibility was commonly available, the counters were also.

Sorry, but, IMX, having GMed and played both... while both systems have invisibility as good for sneaky stuff out of combat (fringe working only slightly against HERo here), invisibility in DND is much more effective in actual combat IMX.

At the same time, part of me thinks that if a potential abuse is present, why not rewire it so that the potentially abusive way is the variant, and not the other way around? It strikes me, somewhat, as highlighting a design flaw and then touting it as a feature, not a bug.

I get where you are coming from there.

But, first, depending on what the problem is, there might not be a "fixed way". In a mystery based game, enough telepathy to subtley read others minds is just broken. Desolid in many genres could be just broken. Certainly time travel is frequently just broken.

One thing i will mention (not that i think you are saying this, but some will)... points do not always balance powers. the ability to go back in time 5 minutes is imbalanced at 20 pts, 50 pts or even 150 pts. NRay vision is another such case, especially in mystery based scenarios.
Depending on the game, cost itself may not be an adequate balance factor. Some powers will need scenario based or campaighn based controls applied by scripting.

However, I do agree with the notion that flagging powers which are (either overtly or deceptively) abusive as such is a good idea in general. One can quibble over which ones should be and which ones should not, and without my book in front of me i wont argue this one vs that one.

However, as you point out, flagging them is perhaps like adult content warning labels and R ratings... they merely increase the interest in them.

If you want to make this worthwhile, you might instead want to put a few sentences in each "warning danger!" power about what causes the problem and offer suggestions on how to fix it.

But then again... remember, psion has clarified... this thread is about how DnD never does this. [Uncalled for comment snipped. -Darkness]

 

[Aaron2]

Yep, that's why it's so important to create HERO characters together with the GM, you just need to have some influence in character creation, since those disadvantages have to make some appearance in the campaign, otherwise they aren't any (as the book actually notes).

I'd take in one step further and say that the GM should create all characters from a non-system specific write-up provided by the players. Plus, the PC's character sheets should not show the point costs anywhere.

My biggest problem with Hero is that it is a "roll low" dice system which I find cumbersome.


Aaron