OotS 406

[Felix]

Just because Miko thinks something doesn't make it so, as has been forcefully demonstrated in the last few strips.

You mean, like when I just said:

Of course she also believes it to be a Good act, and she is wrong.​

Because if that's what you mean, then Miko being wrong about things at times is not something we disagree over.

On the other hand, just because Miko thinks something doesn't make it wrong, either. We have proof that her act was Evil (her falling). Proof as to the Law-Chaos morality of her act we lack. You can't successfully argue that her act was non-Evil. But neither can you conclusively argue that the act was non-Lawful.

 

[Grog]

On the other hand, just because Miko thinks something doesn't make it wrong, either. We have proof that her act was Evil (her falling). Proof as to the Law-Chaos morality of her act we lack. You can't successfully argue that her act was non-Evil. But neither can you conclusively argue that the act was non-Lawful.

Just as you can't conclusively argue that Roy doesn't sneak off and eat babies. Or that the entire strip isn't a hallucination.

As I've said already, this is fiction. The only person who can conclusively say anything about it is the author.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

And while paranoid delusions does not justify commiting evil acts is does justify that she keeps her good alignment. If Miko killed people because she was seeing demons she would still lose her paladinhood but she would not suddenly became evil and on par with the worshiper of an evil god who killls babies on his alter every full moon.

Actually, last time I checked, killing innocent people was evil, regardless of your motives for doing so. If you kill people because you like to, it's evil. If you kill people because you're crazy, it's evil. The act is evil, and perpetrating the act means that you are committing evil. If performing such acts becomes typical for you, you become evil.

Your reasons for performing evil are immaterial. What counts is that you did the evil act.

And we have disagee that this is a case of a paladin making up crap to justify evil actions. There are some valid reasons why Miko had reason to believe that there was something hinky going on.

I agree that she had reason to believe that something was up. I said so myself. But she made up the whole conspiracy as an excuse to commit murder because at that moment she felt like murdering someone. There was no evidence that any of what she made up was going on. The sequence of events she describes is completely her invention, and does not correspond to the evidence that was presented to her.

Thinking that with the evidence as she precived it there was a good possibailty that the OOTS and Shojo were up to evil was not that far fetched.

"Not that far fetched" is not sufficient to justify murder.

She just didn't out of the blue come up with the fact that Shojo had violated his vows even Hinjo thought he had and that he should be arrested and tried.

Shojo was not a paladin, and so had not made the same vows that the paladins had.

Miko did not commit an evil act by judging the evidence wrong she committed an evil act by slaying an innocent man.

Agreed. No one is arguing otherwise. What is this intended to address?

 

[Felix]

Just as you can't conclusively argue that Roy doesn't sneak off and eat babies. Or that the entire strip isn't a hallucination.

As I've said already, this is fiction. The only person who can conclusively say anything about it is the author.

Ok, if we're going to talk about likelyhood:

Do you think that Miko, a character who has always been more Lawful than Good, often Lawful to the exclusion of Good, who knows and follows the law, when she commits an Evil act simultaneously commits a Chaotic one...

is as likely

As Roy eating babies?

 

[Grog]

Ok, if we're going to talk about likelyhood:

Who said anything about likelihood? You said that it's impossible to conclusively state that Miko doesn't have special powers to execute people as she sees fit, and I was just pointing out that you can't conclusively state anything at all about the comic.

Now, if you'd rather talk about what's likely than what one can conclusively prove, that's fine with me. As to the question of likelihood on the following matters: a) That Miko has special powers under the law of Azure City to execute whomever she likes, whenever she likes, and this was, for some reason, never mentioned in the strip despite the fact that it's a radical departure from the PHB norms for paladins and it would have been directly relevant to what was going on on more than one occasion, and b) That Roy sneaks off to eat babies every once in a while....

The answer is, I think they're both pretty far-fetched.

 

[Felix]

Who said anything about likelihood?

Well...

We can only go by what we're explicitly shown, or can reasonably infer from what we're shown.

If "reasonably infer" doesn't mean something very near "likely", then I don't speak English.

So it seems that you were talking about likelihood.​

Now, if you'd rather talk about what's likely than what one can conclusively prove, that's fine with me.

I figured since you agreed with me that you can't conclusively prove what Miko is allowed to do, even though you previously said you could, that I would address your point of how reasonable it was.

That Miko has special powers under the law of Azure City to execute whomever she likes, whenever she likes

Again, give me some credit. That, or tell me where I said something so patently stupid. It's tiresome to have an idiotic notion like this ascribed to me.

It is not stupid to think that the head paladin of the Sapphire Guard has, in times of emergency, the power to declare martial law. Xykon outside the gates constitutes an emergency. Shojo corrupting the courts constitutes treason. Simply because she was wrong in her execution does not mean she was not legally empowered to do it.

But somehow it's as likely as Roy eating babies.

That was the sound of my eyes rolling.

 

[Grog]

If "reasonably infer" doesn't mean something very near "likely", then I don't speak English.

So it seems that you were talking about likelihood.

Fair enough. I was talking about likelihood. But you were talking about certainty, at least until your last comment when you shifted your argument.

I figured since you agreed with me that you can't conclusively prove what Miko is allowed to do, even though you previously said you could, that I would address your point of how reasonable it was.

Wrong. I never said that one could conclusively prove what Miko was allowed to do. All I said in the post you cite is that in a previous strip, Miko was not allowed to act as judge, jury, and executioner with respect to Belkar.

Again, give me some credit. That, or tell me where I said something so patently stupid. It's tiresome to have an idiotic notion like this ascribed to me.

Earlier in the thread, you said this:

(We don't know if she had it within her powers to assume judge/jury/executioner status because that would require knowledge of the laws of Azure city.

There's nothing there about declaring martial law in times of emergency. You were advancing the possibility that Miko had the power to act as judge, jury, and executioner under the laws of Azure City - or, in other words, that she has the power to execute whomever she likes, whenever she likes.

It is not stupid to think that the head paladin of the Sapphire Guard has, in times of emergency, the power to declare martial law. Xykon outside the gates constitutes an emergency. Shojo corrupting the courts constitutes treason. Simply because she was wrong in her execution does not mean she was not legally empowered to do it.

So I will ask again - if Miko was legally empowered to execute Shojo, show me the strip that tells us that. Simply saying "There's nothing in the strip that says she wasn't" is no argument at all. The fact that something is not explicitly denied in the strip does not constitute evidence that it's true. It just means that OotS is a work of fiction with a limited amount of space to tell a story, and the author can't afford to spend hundreds of strips explicitly spelling out all the things that aren't true in it. There's nothing in the strip that says Roy doesn't eat babies.

But somehow it's as likely as Roy eating babies.

Which I also never said. You're arguing against straw men here.

 

[frankthedm]

Originally Posted by Elf Witch
By point of contention is that one evil act does not make a person evil

Who, by name, disagrees with this? Anyone?

I do. One single evil act willfully committed can easily change a good person to an evil person.

Not all evil acts will do so. But plenty are heinous enough to say, yep, you're evil.

 

[Felix]

Fair enough. I was talking about likelihood. But you were talking about certainty, at least until your last comment when you shifted your argument.

I was talking about uncertainty; namely that you can't be certain that what she did was not Lawful. After you agreed with me that this is the case, I did not press the issue and moved on to your "reasonably infer" business.

Wrong. I never said that one could conclusively prove what Miko was allowed to do. All I said in the post you cite is that in a previous strip, Miko was not allowed to act as judge, jury, and executioner with respect to Belkar.

Except that in the strip you cite, she is not allowed to do so because of an order from her superior, not because she is not otherwise empowered to do so.

You were advancing the possibility that Miko had the power to act as judge, jury, and executioner under the laws of Azure City - or, in other words, that she has the power to execute whomever she likes, whenever she likes.

I am advancing the possibility that Azure City possesses a clause concerning Martial Law. And just as Martial Law does not mean "kill who you want when you want", neither does my proposition for Miko.

Unless that's what you think martial law is, in which case, no need to continue.

So I will ask again - if Miko was legally empowered to execute Shojo, show me the strip that tells us that.

The burden of proof is not on me. I suggested a possibility. You countered with saying that it was not the case. If by that you meant to say it is impossible, please cite your own sources. It is not my responsibility to disprove when I'm not arguing conclusivity and you are. I simply have to show the possibility.

Simply saying "There's nothing in the strip that says she wasn't" is no argument at all.

1. Azure City is in a state of emergency with an army of hobgoblins and undead outside.
2. Shojo admitted that he had operated outside the remit of law.
3. Shojo admitted he has used the Sapphire Guard at his convienience for his own ends.
4. Shojo admitted he corrupted the legal system for his own ends.
5. Miko assumed j/j/e powers in a manner which can be consistent with Martial Law.
6. Miko holds a position of authority consistent with someone who would be able to declare Martial Law.
7. Miko has consistently demonstrated Lawful behavior, often to the exclusion of Good behavior.

1. It is likely that Azure City's laws allow for Martial Law.
2. It is likely that the Sapphire Guard, during times of Martial Law, is the governing force.
3. It is likely that treason carries a sentence of death.
4. It is likely that Miko, who as the highest ranking paladin of the Sapphire Guard, and an extraordinarily Lawful character, would be familiar with the laws pertaining to Martial Law.

Her act of execution was an Evil act, evidenced by her fall. Given the above circumstances, it is not implausable that the execution was also a Lawful act.

There's nothing in the strip that says Roy doesn't eat babies. Which I also never said. You're arguing against straw men here.

"a) That Miko has special powers ... and b) That Roy sneaks off to eat babies every once in a while.... The answer is, I think they're both pretty far-fetched."​

My apologies. You did not say they were both likely. You equated them by saying they were both far fetched. Starting from the highest ranking paladin being able to declare martial law, how much further would you have to fetch to reach Roy snacking on baby corpses?

 

[Baron Opal]

Actually, I don't believe that it is well known that Xykon's army is on it's way. Only Miko, Hinjo, Shojo, Roy and Belkar know that they are close.

Still, I concur that Miko at least believes that her actions were lawful.