Open Letter to WotC from Chris Dias

[BryonD]

I don't agree with this. Like the 4e adventures (at least the handful that I know) the 3E adventures have some good, even powerful, ideas, but extremely banal and overly combat-centric execution (Bastion of Broken Souls is in my view the poster child for this).

I'm not going to argue opinion.

But I don't see how cherry-picking examples really adds to the conversation. As I said, I'm really not qualified to comment on 4E adventures. But it seems that it is hard to find 4E fans (around here at least) who don't complain loudly about the quality of modules. The 3E adventures ran hot and cold and were commented on accordingly.

 

[Matt James]

If you cannot speak to the value or quality of 4e adventures, you shouldn't be speaking about it. You're clearly trying to bait people into your flame traps.

 

[Wicht]

If you cannot speak to the value or quality of 4e adventures, you shouldn't be speaking about it. You're clearly trying to bait people into your flame traps.

Really now? That seems a tad harsh. :/

I haven't read any 4e adventures either, but I do know if there is one thing that most people who like 4e complain about it is WotC's modules.

BryonD, in this case, was merely echoing Vyvyan's sentiment in order to buttress his own point. I would find it a strange rule of debate/conversation to not be allowed to use the points the other guy has already conceded.

 

[Matt James]

Most people make up statistics as well.

Damn, I just got sucked back into this ridiculous thread

 

[Mark CMG]

If you cannot speak to the value or quality of 4e adventures, you shouldn't be speaking about it.

Start a poll about it in the 4E forum for a better idea of how widespread it might be. I'd suggest you make the voters names visible as some EN World polls seem to attract one or two ballot stuffers. I often see this complaint and often see those who make the complaint discuss their conversions of PF APs. Maybe they are just vocal minorities.

 

[Matt James]

Start a poll about it in the 4E forum for a better idea of how widespread it might be. I'd suggest you make the voters names visible as some EN World polls seem to attract one or two ballot stuffers. I often see this complaint and often see those who make the complaint discuss their conversions of PF APs. Maybe they are just vocal minorities.

How does this relate to the comment "but I do know if there is one thing that most people who like 4e complain about it is WotC's modules." (you said so, so it must be true)--wait, it's the adventures now? I thought it was the GSL? No, wait. I thought it was people wanting WotC to do more for them? This thread has turned into a complete Charlie Foxtrot. Detractors of the edition are grasping at straws. This entire thread has been used as a tool to rail against an edition, and anyone that plays/supports it. I'm surprised to see so many non-4e players invested and concerned. It's mind boggling. Why can't people play in their own sandboxes without dropping turds in neighboring ones? If the holy grail of RPGs is elsewhere, what other possible purpose could one have other than to flame and denigrate what others might enjoy?

Edit: I'm going back to reading non-confrontation threads. Drop me an e-mail if you want.

 

[pemerton]

If you cannot speak to the value or quality of 4e adventures, you shouldn't be speaking about it. You're clearly trying to bait people into your flame traps.

Sorry to have contributed to luring you back into the thread.

I'm a big fan of 4e. Most of my recent posting history on this forum is defending 4e against various detractors (at the moment, in another degenerating Industry thread - Roads to Rome Redux).

But I don't like the WotC 4e modules, because in my view they radically fail to leverage all the appealing features of 4e, by presenting combat-centric railroads rather than thematically engaging, player driven scenarios.

The contrast, for me, is with the example modules at the end of the original HeroWars Narrator's Book. I'm converting one of those modules into 4e at the moment, and it's a remarkably smooth conversion - both 4e monster design and 4e skill challenge design make it easy to capture the flavour of the HeroWars contests and the various attributes that they bring into play.

WotC has the money and talent to - in principle, at least - present that sort of adventure with a level of professionalism and polish that Issaries just can't muster. But for some reason that I really can't fathom, they don't.

 

[JVisgaitis]

Wow, this thread was a pretty crazy ride. I really miss EN World and posting on here. I think it's too little too late for WotC to save any face with the GSL. That ship has sailed and the line between Pathfinder and 4e is etched in stone.

I'm not going to guess on the sales of Pathfinder vs. 4e, because that's all it would be is a guess. I do believe that the marketing decisions that WotC has been making with Red Box, a reboot of 4e with Essentials, the D&D boardgames, D&D Heroscape, etc. is indicative of their position in the RPG market.

WotC has more products that try to either bring in new Customers or market to old players through nostalgia then I've ever seen. All of this points to a company who isn't happy with where they are. Whether they are still the market leader or not, they are clearly trying to grow their base through avenues they didn't explore in the 3e era and that speaks volumes IMHO.

 

[Azgulor]

How does this relate to the comment "but I do know if there is one thing that most people who like 4e complain about it is WotC's modules." (you said so, so it must be true)--wait, it's the adventures now? I thought it was the GSL? No, wait. I thought it was people wanting WotC to do more for them? This thread has turned into a complete Charlie Foxtrot. Detractors of the edition are grasping at straws. This entire thread has been used as a tool to rail against an edition, and anyone that plays/supports it. I'm surprised to see so many non-4e players invested and concerned. It's mind boggling. Why can't people play in their own sandboxes without dropping turds in neighboring ones? If the holy grail of RPGs is elsewhere, what other possible purpose could one have other than to flame and denigrate what others might enjoy?

Edit: I'm going back to reading non-confrontation threads. Drop me an e-mail if you want.

That's a pretty freaky lens through which you're reading this thread...

If you don't think there's a common perception (at least among the forum-posting 4e fanbase) that WotC's adventures are strongly conisdered sub-par, you've been living under a rock. Not too long ago, one of the WotC staffers (I don't recall who it was at the moment) started a thread on "how can WotC make its adventures better". Was that person edition-bashing and grasping at straws?

The GSL did have a large and negative impact on 3PPs. Remember Necromancer Games? Remember how pro-4e they were? Remember how they ultimately pulled waaaaay back because of how they felt the GSL could/would put them in an untenable position? Yeah, good ole Clark, that anti-4e bigot holding up his GSL straw-man argument....

This thread started because an open letter from a 3PP was sent to WotC. You don't have to like the letter. You don't have to agree with the letter. But dismissing it out of hand doesn't invalidate why that letter was written.

Dismissing everyone whose opinion has differed from yours and labeling them 4e detractors is your perogative. If you really think everything is wine and roses in WotC-land, 4e is the RPG cat's meow, D&D is bigger than it's ever been, and that 3PP should either get on board the WotC train or quit their "complaining", more power to you.

I do, however, think Reality disagrees with you. I suspect it sits somewhere between your stance and "WotC & 4e sucks". If WotC views the world through the same lens as you, I predict Reality's stance will slide farther and farther away from your position.

 

[Umbran]

Several of you people are getting reported for sundry variations on the theme of, "Can't be bothered treat other gamers like they're real people who matter more than my own highly vaunted opinions."

This thread is not providing intellectual value worth our babysitting you and it. THUNK.