Opinion: But It's So Gamist!!

[GreatLemur]

For D&D, I prefer a gamist approach because that is how D&D has always worked. It has always been gamist. There's an interesting passage in the AD&D 1e DMG where Gary Gygax explains that if simulation ever collided with gamism (I believe that "fun" is what he called it), gamism won out.

It's a bit of a fallacy to conflate "gamism" with "fun". Hell, everything you do at the table ought to be "fun". I think that passage was more about why the game doesn't need rules for bladder fullness or authentic medieval skin parasites.

Realism ain't really "fun", certainly, but believability is. Or, maybe more correctly, a lack of believability negatively impacts the fun generated by other components of the game.

 

[jdrakeh]

It's a bit of a fallacy to conflate "gamism" with "fun".

Not really, not in the context that I cite, as the passage in question specifically names simulation as not being a design goal in AD&D, while narrativism hadn't yet been implemented in a published game. Go read the passage in question. While Gary says "fun" he clearly alludes to the 'game' elements of D&D.

 

[jdrakeh]

You assume that 'fun' can be substituted with 'gamism' ... i believe this is an arbitrary interpretation ... in my opinion too much 'gamism' is very, very far from 'fun' concept ... and this is not the way D&D has always worked ... absolutely not.

Of course it the assumption 'gamism = fun' is true for you, you will be very happy with the new edition ... and i'm happy for you ...

The passage in question specifically states that simulation did not take precendence over "fun" in AD&D. Narrativism had not yet been conceived of or implemented in a published product at the time. What else does that leave? Also, Gary clearly alludes to the 'game' aspects of AD&D as taking precedence over other aspects of AD&D (namely, the simulation of reality) in that same passage. Look, you may not like -- but that doesn't change the reality of what was written.

 

[GreatLemur]

Not really, not in the context that I cite, as the passage in question specifically names simulation as not being a design goal in AD&D, while narrativism hadn't yet been implemented in a published game. Go read the passage in question. While Gary says "fun" he clearly alludes to the 'game' elements of D&D.

I started typing a up a big, highly digressive reply to this, going into the way I think the GSN model's terminology should be used, but then I realized the whole tangent was of no use to anyone, and GSN has already been discussed and debated into the dirt.

So instead I'll just say that I don't disagree with the spirit of your post at all; I think my definitions of "gamism", "simulationism", and "narrativism" are simply less strict.