Orb of Imposition Save modifier question

[Gort]

I think they messed up here because they mixed something that scales with your level (wisdom bonus) with something that doesn't scale with your level (saving throws).

It'd be like having a power that reduced someone's speed by 2 per tier. Not such a big deal at heroic, but game-breakingly nasty at epic.

 

[Runestar]

It is already possible to permanently lock down 1 foe/encounter permanently.

Get a wis of 28, and throw in spell focus. With orb imposition, this imposes a save penalty of -11 on the enemy, which means that he can never make his saving throw successfully (since by the rules, not even a natural 20 is a success).

This means that at epic lvs, for every 5 normal foes the DM throws at you, you can expect 1 to be more or less irrelevant, as he can only look forward to being stunned/held/whatever for 5 minutes or the duration of the encounter, whichever comes first.

 

[Jhaelen]

It is already possible to permanently lock down 1 foe/encounter permanently.

Get a wis of 28, and throw in spell focus. With orb imposition, this imposes a save penalty of -11 on the enemy, which means that he can never make his saving throw successfully (since by the rules, not even a natural 20 is a success).

This means that at epic lvs, for every 5 normal foes the DM throws at you, you can expect 1 to be more or less irrelevant, as he can only look forward to being stunned/held/whatever for 5 minutes or the duration of the encounter, whichever comes first.

Yes, but
- it's at epic levels,
- it requires min-maxing,
- you still have to hit,
- it's less effective against Elite and Solo monsters, and
- many epic monsters are either outright immune, or have other ways to improve their saves or automatically get rid of debilitating effects.

 

[Runestar]

Define min-maxing, since a 28 wis is not that hard to get if you go elf and enter demigod. Hitting is possible via elven accuracy, and I am not sure what sort of immunities you have in mind, since few, if any monsters I am aware of are outright immune to status effects like stun.

Even solo foes still have to roll a 16 or more to succeed on their save (and elite need to roll a 19 or 20). That does not seem like very good odds to have, especially when you consider that it is 5 PCs vs 1 BBEG...

 

[Jhaelen]

Define min-maxing, since a 28 wis is not that hard to get if you go elf and enter demigod. Hitting is possible via elven accuracy, and I am not sure what sort of immunities you have in mind, since few, if any monsters I am aware of are outright immune to status effects like stun.

Even solo foes still have to roll a 16 or more to succeed on their save (and elite need to roll a 19 or 20). That does not seem like very good odds to have, especially when you consider that it is 5 PCs vs 1 BBEG...

Well, instead of me defining min-maxing how about you telling me any other ways to get 28 wis? For some reason every 'broken' combo or tactic anyone so far has come up with involves demigod...

When I wrote about immunities et.al. I was thinking of the Phane's Temporal Fugue but iirc, other epic monsters have similar ways to shrug off effects.

 

[Gloombunny]

Well, instead of me defining min-maxing how about you telling me any other ways to get 28 wis? For some reason every 'broken' combo or tactic anyone so far has come up with involves demigod...

So, what, taking demigod counts as min-maxing? It's not like there's a lot of options for epic destiny.

 

[darkadelphia]

Well, instead of me defining min-maxing how about you telling me any other ways to get 28 wis? For some reason every 'broken' combo or tactic anyone so far has come up with involves demigod...

When I wrote about immunities et.al. I was thinking of the Phane's Temporal Fugue but iirc, other epic monsters have similar ways to shrug off effects.

Demigod is broken, but regardless, it's not like players are mining obscure combinations to do this. Any player who spends more than a few minutes thinking about how to make a good wizard will realize that being an orb wizard with high wisdom is the way to go. And demigod is so hands down better, it's often foolish not to take it. This is a problem with the rules and not with players who are just trying to make good characters.

 

[Gort]

Demigod is broken, but regardless, it's not like players are mining obscure combinations to do this.

Agreed. This isn't Pun-Pun or the Hulking Hurler munch. It's just going, "Hey, I've got a power that uses Wisdom, where can I get Wisdom bonuses?" And saying, "Well, it only gets REALLY broken when you get to epic levels" was one of the biggest problems 3e had - hilariously broken powers being shoved to 9th level as though the designers were thinking, "Ahh, nobody's gonna get to 17th level anyway."

Massive-wisdom-with-orb-specialisation munching is pretty obviously unintended when you compare it to the other choice for Orb of Imposition - being able to extend your Cloud of Daggers for a WHOLE EXTRA ROUND! That's like, four extra damage!

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

Massive-wisdom-with-orb-specialisation munching is pretty obviously unintended when you compare it to the other choice for Orb of Imposition - being able to extend your Cloud of Daggers for a WHOLE EXTRA ROUND! That's like, four extra damage!

I think the nerf to Orb will be that the penalty to save applies for only one roll of a save. Then in effect it can be used to make sure that an enemy fails at least one save, which puts it on par with the Staff bonus to one defense and the Wand bonus to one attack.

Instead of stun locking Orcus forever you can stun lock Orcus for 2 rounds, at the end of which he's back to his normal save.

I don't think R&D should waste too much time on balancing the epic levels until they've finished with heroic and paragon though. Right now I'd rather see an errata for needlefang drake swarms.

Also, I've come to the conclusion that Orb wizard is a trap before epic levels. The 16 Int, 20 Wis Orb Wizard may be great at 30th level but is pathetic at 1st. And he can die just as effectively at 1st level as at 30.

 

[Jhaelen]

Agreed. This isn't Pun-Pun or the Hulking Hurler munch. It's just going, "Hey, I've got a power that uses Wisdom, where can I get Wisdom bonuses?" And saying, "Well, it only gets REALLY broken when you get to epic levels" was one of the biggest problems 3e had - hilariously broken powers being shoved to 9th level as though the designers were thinking, "Ahh, nobody's gonna get to 17th level anyway."

Well I agree with this to a certain degree. However, I believe there were and are a lot of groups that do not care about epic levels. I know that I didn't in 3E; and I will probably end my 4E campaign at level 20, as well.

So, stuff that is broken at epic levels is not necessarily going to be a problem for a majority of players.