Pathfinder 1E Orcs and their available arsenal

[Puxido]

I was writing some lore for a campaign when I had the thought. Would Orcs have availability to steel? Not just in means of what is in the ground to mine, but tech wise? They are usually shown as a race of fighting barbarians, so why would they? Perhaps they are a people who have yet to pass the iron age, or maybe even the bronze age. I then imagined this whole society of brutish Orc barbarians, who ran into battle with bronze swords and daggers and axes, and perhaps hammers (though personally, I feel better giving them stone warhammers, mainly because stone is more readily available and heavy enough to crush armor, perhaps in-char it would be granite chunks, seems Orcish enough.). They would also probably wear a mixture of bronze, leather and bone. I know it's all up to me how I write them, but how do you guys feel about this type of Orc?

 

[Yora]

Bronze is really quite easy to work. If you know the method, you can make it with nothing but a campfire and a clay pot, assuming you have the raw materials. And it's also very easy to recycle. Just break it into small pieces, heat it up until it turns liquid, and then pour it into a new mold.

Making steel that is better than bronze is rather difficult though. Since the melting point of iron is significantly higher than of copper, a normal fire won't do it and you need much more complex equipment and better knowledge of what you're doing.
However, there are still some steelmakers in Japan who make steel the old fashion way for authentic traditional art (traditional sword blades are classified as art, not weapons). The skills are much more complex and difficult than for making a good bronze, but they do it just with clay, charcoal, reed baskets, and hammers. Making blades from such iron look super shiny is a great deal of work, but if you don't care how it looks, but only how it cuts, than making weapons with it is not that difficult.

The greatest challenge is knowing what ingedients you need and how to correctly mix and heat them. It's a skill that took very long to develop, because nobody knew it was even possible until someone discovered by trial and error.
Orcs would probably live in a world where steelmaking already exist and they know it can be done. It should not be too difficult to them to capture someone and force him to teach them the basics.
And if there is one type of craft orcs would be interested in mastering, then it's the making of steel and forging of weapon. Once they are familiar with the principle, they should probably make great progress with figuring out the specific details of making very good steel.

 

[ephemeron]

I could totally see orcs lagging behind the other races in metallurgy. Maybe orcish champions can be recognized by the armor and weapons they took as trophies from more "advanced" enemies and now use, or maybe the strongest orcs scorn better tools and proudly wield even more primitive equipment than the rank and file.

Historically speaking, the Iron Age already means the use of steel, because the technique of case-hardening -- converting the outer layer of an iron object into steel -- was the key to making iron weapons that held an edge better than bronze.

The technologies of iron smelting and case hardening seem to go back to about the 10th century BCE and to have started in Anatolia and spread out from there, with hints of earlier invention in a few other places.

(There's a theory that the Mycenaean Greeks, together with several other Bronze Age civilizations that seem to have collapsed about the same time, were overrun by iron-using invaders -- that could be a model for technologically-superior orcs!)

Bloomeries were the first type of iron smelter and weren't superseded until the 14th century CE(!), when the blast furnace was invented. And after that, it wasn't until 1855 when the Bessemer process made mass conversion of iron into steel practical.

The relatively slow progress of this aspect of metallurgy means that you can basically do what you want and claim it is inspired by history.

 

[Umbran]

I was writing some lore for a campaign when I had the thought. Would Orcs have availability to steel? Not just in means of what is in the ground to mine, but tech wise? They are usually shown as a race of fighting barbarians, so why would they?

Other than the fact that the Mongols and Vikings both had the ability to work iron/steel, you mean? Those fighting barbarians will take slaves, and some of those slaves will know how to work iron, and so the orcs will then have the technology. It is only if the orcish lands lack the resources (fuel and ore) that the orcs wouldn't be able to use it themselves. And sure as heck they'd *want* steel weapons, given the limitations of bronze and stone.

Broadly speaking, once one culture develops a technology, there are very few reasons for neighbors to not also get that technology. Taking our cues from our own history, one has to jump through hoops to plausibly limit the dissemination of technology or information in the long run.

 

[Kinak]

I think portraying orcs as full-on barbarians is totally reasonable. They're not really known for their craftsmanship.

Trophies
If I were going to spin orcs this way, I'd have them focus on trophies rather than usable items. So their weapons are bone because they killed the thing the bone came from. Their armor is hide because they killed the animal, skinned it, and wear around its pelt.

So, they'd really like fighting humanoid opponents. They kill a knight, get a sword and a steel "pelt"... and probably make some stuff out of the bones too.

Of course, killing another orc to get all their trophies is totally legitimate. Even without killing, challenges in feats of strength or prowess might result in the exchange of trophies.

Trade
To them, the value of a gold piece isn't its metal content or worth as defined by its minters, but decided by who they defeated to get it. A gold piece found in an abandoned village might very easily be worth nothing, but a copper piece pried out of a dragon's hide would be worth a lot and probably be worn by its owner.

Trading with these orcs might look more like betting. You put down some food or weapons, they put down an equal value of trophies, and whoever wins in a challenge of strength gets the lot.

Very few traders would want to deal with that, so most orc goods are taken in raids or pulled from the bodies of fallen enemies.

Crafters
In practice, that doesn't leave much room for crafters in their economy. Each orc is largely on his or her own as far as making trophies into usable items.

Even if you took a lump of iron ore as a trophy, it seems weird to melt it down and make it into a sword. Better to keep it in shape and attach it to a handle (preferably also a trophy).

So there's probably little call for smiths or smelters in orc society. Some more "progressive" tribes might see the output of slaves as part of the slaves, a trophy for whoever took them. I'd imagine more traditional orcs like killing those orcs and taking their sweet weapons.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Wolf72]

If you're on the fence, slaves make a great option. From smithy to miner.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I was writing some lore for a campaign when I had the thought. Would Orcs have availability to steel? Not just in means of what is in the ground to mine, but tech wise? They are usually shown as a race of fighting barbarians, so why would they? Perhaps they are a people who have yet to pass the iron age, or maybe even the bronze age. I then imagined this whole society of brutish Orc barbarians, who ran into battle with bronze swords and daggers and axes, and perhaps hammers (though personally, I feel better giving them stone warhammers, mainly because stone is more readily available and heavy enough to crush armor, perhaps in-char it would be granite chunks, seems Orcish enough.). They would also probably wear a mixture of bronze, leather and bone. I know it's all up to me how I write them, but how do you guys feel about this type of Orc?

I think orcs could make steel. Many "barbarian" cultures could make steel. When the Celts and Germans invaded Rome, and when Rome invaded them, both sides fought with steel. When the Huns and Mongols invaded Eastern Europe, they were shooting steel-tipped arrows at their enemies. I don't know if the Mongols and Huns made their arrows (mobile forges?) or bought or stole them, but they certainly had them.

Even if orcs didn't learn how to make steel from themselves, they'd learn from others. A sympathetic half-orc blacksmith, trained by humans, could pass on the secrets. The big issue orcs deal with is laziness, and even if their culture is generally lazy, there's going to be at least a few orcs willing to work hard. Making weapons sounds pretty prestigious in orc culture.

I thought I read somewhere that Warcraft orc blacksmiths are actually veteran warriors, too old to fight, who understand the value of reliable equipment and so make it. But I couldn't find it in any of the manuals, so maybe I made it up. Still, I can see that happening.

If you're on the fence, slaves make a great option. From smithy to miner.

I don't think orcs forcing slaves to make steel works. Blacksmithing takes a lot of infrastructure, and blacksmithing slaves could easily arm themselves. I figure orcs are either making their own weapons (sized for orc preferences) or stealing them in raids.

I think orcs could use slaves for other tasks (farming, mining, etc).

 

[evileeyore]

It is only if the orcish lands lack the resources (fuel and ore) that the orcs wouldn't be able to use it themselves. And sure as heck they'd *want* steel weapons, given the limitations of bronze and stone.

As Umbran says, if you want to have "Bronze Age" Orcs, the best way is to say they simply don;t have acces to the ores.

It means Orcs will want to raid iron and steel from their neighbors or invade mining areas and take slaves to work the mines.

 

[Puxido]

I am so surprised by all the responses to this thread, thank you all for your input, and there are a few things I would like to add.

Other than the fact that the Mongols and Vikings both had the ability to work iron/steel, you mean? Those fighting barbarians will take slaves, and some of those slaves will know how to work iron, and so the orcs will then have the technology.

Many "barbarian" cultures could make steel. When the Celts and Germans invaded Rome, and when Rome invaded them, both sides fought with steel. When the Huns and Mongols invaded Eastern Europe, they were shooting steel-tipped arrows at their enemies.

I could hardly consider Vikings and Mongols barbarians. Granted, they act barbaric, but they are just too advanced to be barbarians. What would you consider a barbarian? Well, lets take a look at what the game calls a barbarian: A light to medium armored battler who can induce rage in warfare. What is a viking? A battler dubbed up in steel armor, that's a barbarian, that's a warrior. Mongols fit barbarian better, and I think they mostly traded for iron and steel tools, mainly because from what I understand they were mostly nomadic, which would leave little room for building a foundry, I could be wrong though. What do I see a barbarian as? People who live in leather/dirt/maybe adobe huts who wear skins and like to crush people for fun, may eat raw meat, and believe that the reason rusty metal squeaks is because the technology spirits demand a sacrifice of oil and grease lubricant. Vikings lived in villages quite equal to that of most of Europe at that time, meaning that their homes and living were far too luxurious to be considered barbaric.

Broadly speaking, once one culture develops a technology, there are very few reasons for neighbors to not also get that technology.

Considering were talking about a barbaric species of people who have a love of war, killing for pleasure, bathing in blood, and according to Viking mythology, eating people, I think people would sooner burn down their own village then risk Orc's gaining access to a way to make better weapons easier. Plus steel making is hard, like Yora said, you can make bronze with a campfire and clay pot, steel requires much more effort. Do they have access to the masonry skills as well as carpentry needed to make a forge, foundry and device to blow air and keep the fire hot? If these people live in leather and dirt huts, no. And keeping slaves is a bit odd, it would require a bit of organization on the Orcs part. Depending on how many Orcs live in one clan, ther may not be enough Orcs to make sure the slaves don't escape, while making sure there's food and warfare to go around. I'm not saying its not possible, I'm just not sure an Orc clan can handle a bunch of slaves. Maybe one slave to make the steel, they may not be able to make the tools he needs, and he may very well be willing to die before giving up the secrets of steel so they can kill and murder more people. This is a very strange situation, as there are many factors that could keep them from achieving steel, after all, Asia was actually in the Bronze age longer than anyone else (I'm not including native Americans, they never made it into the bronze age, but merely out of choice.)

Even if orcs didn't learn how to make steel from themselves, they'd learn from others. A sympathetic half-orc blacksmith, trained by humans, could pass on the secrets.

I didn't consider this, and it seems like a good idea, but I can sum it up from a quote from the warrior cats book (I know, its a childrens book, but its well written.)

If you wish to train with us, we will have to take you into our Clan. You must either live with us and respect our ways, or return to your Twolegplace and never come back. You cannot live with a paw in each world.

That could easily go for a half-orc in the situation of human world and orc world, he cannot simply live both lives. Since Orcs would be at eternal war with the humans, raiding their villages and killing women and children, if the half-orc were ever to make friends in an Orc clan, the humans would shun him immediately, as he would have to build up their trust in the first place, and making buddies with an Orc clan would shatter that trust in an instance. He could make friends with the humans first, then go to the Orc clan and teach them the secretes of steel, but this would be a permanent decision, and he would forever be shunned, seeing that he did technically backstab them by giving the biggest danger to the village the secret to advanced, better killing tools. This could actually make a fun quest in a campaign: The secret of steel! ; Kill the traitorous Half-orc and kill all the Orcs of the clan to prevent the war hungry Orcs from evolving into a new golden-age of bloodshed and mayhem. That would actually be an interesting plot point.

To be honest, there are a lot of factors to consider, I'm not really sure whether they would be stuck to using bronze or being able to use steel, could go either way depending on many factors. It is fun to talk about.

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

Can I just point out the battle rage the barbarian class is known for is something the real-life Celts were actually known for? And that the Celts typically went into battle anywhere from lightly armored to naked?