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<blockquote data-quote="dave2008" data-source="post: 8035606" data-attributes="member: 83242">Sorry I upset you, that was not the intent.&nbsp; I was just interested in the source of your belief. I don't put much stock in canon, but I am interested in it. I was sincerely asking where you are getting the idea that RQ is more important / powerful, because you were so emphatic about it: &quot;In 4e lore, she is a Greater God, and is The God Of Death. Full stop.&quot;&nbsp; That comment lead me to believe you actually had a source I was unaware of.&nbsp; IIRC, the narrative of 4e tells a different story.&nbsp;&nbsp; IMO, there is enough narrative evidence in 4e to suggest all the gods (the main Dawn War Pantheon) are roughly equal and that they are roughly equivalent to demon lords in power (Demon Lords appear to be weaker mechanically, but not based on the narrative):<ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">It is in the narrative that Demogorgon slew a god (Amoth)</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">It is in the narrative that: &quot;The evil of the Abyss corrupted some of the mighty primordials - Demogorgon, Baphomet, Orcus...&quot; (MM1 pg 52)</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">It is in the narrative that: &quot;...the primordials killed many gods during the great war.&quot; (DMG pg 162)</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">I see no evidence in the narrative that the RQ is more or less important than any other god in the pantheon.&nbsp; The gods are specially noted as &quot;equals&quot; in Manual of the Planes with the exception that Mordain&nbsp; is &quot;first among equals&quot; (MotP pg 91).&nbsp; It is also noted that Torog is:&nbsp; &quot;...among the most powerful deities&quot;&nbsp; (Underdark pg 8).&nbsp; I take this to mean, in the 4e narrative, that the the Dawn War Pantheon is all among the &quot;most powerful deities.&quot;</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Finally, the adventure is part of the narrative IMO, and it is in the narrative of that adventure, Orcus has defeated (or nearly so) the Raven Queen.</li>
</ul>FYI, in my games Tiamat is almost always the most powerful god <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Finally, regarding the Raven Queen and Orcus, this bit of narrative is interesting (The Shadowfell pg 8)[ATTACH=full]123683[/ATTACH]PS I agree with you that the narrative of 4e often does not align with the mechanics.&nbsp; In the 4e narrative it took 3 gods to imprison the primordial &quot;Maul-Tar;&quot; however, mechanically it is only lvl 35.&nbsp; In fact, the primordials are routinely described as often being more powerful than an individual god, yet none of the stat blocks support that.&nbsp; Or course this supports the idea that the demon lords are as powerful (or more so) than the gods in 4e.PSS.&nbsp; One thing I really like about 4e lore is that it does indeed contradict itself in many places. It gives the impression of real myth and that nothing in the lore is absolute.&nbsp; In fact, they often explicitly state that the printed lore is one version or one point of view.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="dave2008, post: 8035606, member: 83242"] Sorry I upset you, that was not the intent. I was just interested in the source of your belief. I don't put much stock in canon, but I am interested in it. I was sincerely asking where you are getting the idea that RQ is more important / powerful, because you were so emphatic about it: "In 4e lore, she is a Greater God, and is The God Of Death. Full stop." That comment lead me to believe you actually had a source I was unaware of. IIRC, the narrative of 4e tells a different story. IMO, there is enough narrative evidence in 4e to suggest all the gods (the main Dawn War Pantheon) are roughly equal and that they are [U]roughly [/U]equivalent to demon lords in power (Demon Lords appear to be weaker mechanically, but not based on the narrative): [LIST] [*]It is in the narrative that Demogorgon slew a god (Amoth) [*]It is in the narrative that: "The evil of the Abyss corrupted some of the mighty primordials - Demogorgon, Baphomet, Orcus..." (MM1 pg 52) [*]It is in the narrative that: "...the primordials killed many gods during the great war." (DMG pg 162) [*]I see no evidence in the narrative that the RQ is more or less important than any other god in the pantheon. The gods are specially noted as "equals" in Manual of the Planes with the exception that Mordain is "first among equals" (MotP pg 91). It is also noted that Torog is: "...among the most powerful deities" (Underdark pg 8). I take this to mean, in the 4e narrative, that the the Dawn War Pantheon is all among the "most powerful deities." [*]Finally, the adventure is part of the narrative IMO, and it is in the narrative of that adventure, Orcus has defeated (or nearly so) the Raven Queen. [/LIST] FYI, in my games Tiamat is almost always the most powerful god ;) Finally, regarding the Raven Queen and Orcus, this bit of narrative is interesting (The Shadowfell pg 8) [ATTACH type="full" alt="1594581225086.png"]123683[/ATTACH] PS I agree with you that the narrative of 4e often does not align with the mechanics. In the 4e narrative it took 3 gods to imprison the primordial "Maul-Tar;" however, mechanically it is only lvl 35. In fact, the primordials are routinely described as often being more powerful than an individual god, yet none of the stat blocks support that. Or course this supports the idea that the demon lords are as powerful (or more so) than the gods in 4e. PSS. One thing I really like about 4e lore is that it does indeed contradict itself in many places. It gives the impression of real myth and that nothing in the lore is absolute. In fact, they often explicitly state that the printed lore is one version or one point of view. [/QUOTE]

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