Organic Mythology

there is no nonsense about gods needing followers.

That's not nonsense, it's a classic Trek episode. I believe it was called Who Mourns Apollo.

And I've definitely gotten some roleplaying goodness out of it -- forgotten gods are weakened, eventually, and gods want worshippers. This can drive action and plots. And if you want powerful but obscure, duh, his worshippers are on another planet, alternative prime material plane, or another plane.
 

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With City-State you then get PCs who each worship their home town diety for the most part but all give lip service to El and Ashura. You will of course get your outliers.. evil 'wandering' dieties or monster dieties or whatever but the main accepted religion will belong to this main group.

Nod. Fits ancient Greece too, with patron gods of the cities.

And as they said in "Conan the Barbarian": "At first it was just another snake cult, but then it spread." I think that's the feel you're looking for.
 

That's not nonsense, it's a classic Trek episode. I believe it was called Who Mourns Apollo.

And I've definitely gotten some roleplaying goodness out of it -- forgotten gods are weakened, eventually, and gods want worshippers. This can drive action and plots. And if you want powerful but obscure, duh, his worshippers are on another planet, alternative prime material plane, or another plane.

Who mourns for Adonais?
 

Gods needing, or at least benefitting, from worshippers is a very wide belief pre-monotheism. It's at the root of sacrifice - the god benefits from your sacrifice, maybe he rewards you in turn. D&D does tend towards a crypto-monotheist approach though; there are no rules for what benefits you get for sacrificing a hecatomb to Apollo, unless you count Cleric spell components.
 



Yeah, that. So I take it you agree, since it was a decent classic Trek episode, it's a decent concept for D&D? ;)

Oh yes, and a similar idea has been used with great success by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett, among others.

But I don't want it to be the default / only take of deities in D&D! This trope, which was originally a subversion of the "traditional" mythic idea of gods by presenting them as needing their worshippers as much as or more as those worshippers needed them, has been used too much and too often.

Now, deities who exist independently of and predating their worshippers - gods which the humans, or elves, or whatnot, didn't make in their own image, and maintain through their belief and worship - is a subversion by itself.

It also solves the oft-quoted "Why would anyone worship the Chaotic Evil, total-bastard God of Nasty Things?" problem. No matter how few people find the ideals of Torog, the loathsome god of torment, imprisonment and deep places - appealing, the King That Crawls exists and is a god, and you just have to deal with this.
 

For the Baklunish -- generally the enemy in the war at the heart of my campaign -- I use the Greek gods, which fit just about right -- everybody knows the main stuff (Zeus and Apollo), but they don't always recognize a shrine to Ares or a Hecate worshipper when they see them. Seems about right for the character knowledge too.

Interesting - never been too sure what to do with the Bakluni myself. It's important because I started a new weekly online 'classic Greyhawk' game in January (using Dragonsfoot chat forum, C&C rules) and I'm looking at the setting with fresh eyes.

For the Bakluni Al'Akbar implies quasi-Islamic, or at least Zoroastrian dualist, while the Bakluni-origin deities mentioned in the '83 Greyhawk set like Istus don't fit that well at all. Greek mythos seems way 'out there', though. Since the deities in the '83 set are just the Bakluni gods known & revered in the central Flanaess, I think I'll go with those mostly fallen into dessitude while the modern Bakluni follow a semi-monotheist faith initiated by Al'Akbar and centred on a ruling male Creator deity.
 

Of course, you could just use real mythologies, or make up your own stuff.

I use Norse, Greek, Greyhawk (Gygax's inventions are pretty good), and a combo of American Indian + Sumerian, as interpreted by AD&D, for the different human cultures in my campaign.

Most gamers are at least passingly familiar with Thor and Athena and friends, so why not use them?

That's what I normally do, but I find that most players still treat them as vague concepts. My hope is that if I create a mythology specifically for my campaign setting they'll give it more thought.

Well, it really depends on the nature of the gods in the campaign- maybe they don't exist because people made them up, they might even just be super-powerful outsiders.

That's the way I see standard DND gods. The only thing that makes them different from other outsiders is that people worship them. They aren't really that important.


As to what questions need to be answered by religions, think carefully about this: in a dnd game world, creatures can learn the true answers to most questions. The gods are demonstrably real, magic works, there are divinations to answer your questions. What happens after you die? You can find out, by dying and coming back.

Not in my campaigns. Some questions are better left unanswered.

Of course, there's also the option of having ontological flux, where the answers o those questions depend on the circumstances and whom you ask.

I'm doing a bit of that in my campaign. If you ask people from Mythros (my Europe/Christendom) who the Lord is and they'll tell you it's Mithras. Ask people from Jangdor (Arabia) and they'll tell you it's Bahamet-Ra. Yes, I'm using real dieties as a basis to give a general generic image of what the god exemplifies to casual mythology buffs (most gamers) but then modify them heavily to fit the campaign's feel. Northerners claim that Mithras became the primary diety after driving Tiamet to hell when she imprisoned Bahamet-Ra and attempted to take control of creation. Southerners claim that Mithras is a pretender and that Bahamet-Ra is still supreme. Of course many wars have been fought over this.

Take a look at these deities I've created for Urbis...

There's some interesting ideas there. I especially like the concept of lesser dieties withdrawing from the world as they become greater gods.

Common to what? (I actually can't even think of a rain goddess off the top of my head)

Ok, you caught me. That's just what I do in my world, and to be honest it seems terribly cliche. Some religion had to do that before, right?

Go find Green Ronin's Book of the Righteous. It has a fully realized Mythology that feels Real. It has gods, explains where they came from, what their relation to one another is, and how their existance has impacted the world and it's inhabitants. It also gives the gods some personality beyond their alignments and portfolios, with all the qualities and flaws one would expect from pantheistic deities.

I've played in games using that reference, but I never really liked the mythology. I never could really put my finger on why though.

Per the books, D&D gods aren't created by man to fulfill purposes. They simply are, like mountains or the sun. Or you. What's your purpose?

D&D Gods aren't mythological. They actually show up occasionally, and send Angels of Vengeance down to battle Primordials or enforce edicts.

Then they don't deserve worship. I'm strong so worship me doesn't seem like a valid reason to found a religion.

I think there's actually a very good, and surprisingly simple, reason for why deities tend to be two-dimensional....

The released diety books don't really accomplish what I'm looking for. They tell you the dogma of the god and what their followers are expected to do, but not how they interact with the world. Ok, so and so is the rain goddess, but why does it rain?

Gods needing, or at least benefitting, from worshippers is a very wide belief pre-monotheism. It's at the root of sacrifice - the god benefits from your sacrifice, maybe he rewards you in turn. D&D does tend towards a crypto-monotheist approach though; there are no rules for what benefits you get for sacrificing a hecatomb to Apollo, unless you count Cleric spell components.

I've always just thought of these offerings pleasing the gods, them actually needing sacrifices is an interesting idea. It's not just worship that gives them strength, but specific rites including ritual sacrifice.

slwoyach,

I'm not sure you'd call my Harqual Mythology organic but feel free to take a look.

The Mythology & History of Harqual

Let me know what you think.

It looks like you do a lot of the same things I do, as far as taking existing gods and adapting them to your setting while changing them quite a bit.
 

It looks like you do a lot of the same things I do, as far as taking existing gods and adapting them to your setting while changing them quite a bit.
Yeah. I like to give deities new twists, which is how the Harqualian Mythology came into being. I'm in the process of reposting the Wiki material to a thread here on EN World in my social group fourm.

It might be easier to read it in this thread...

http://www.enworld.org/forum/world-kulan/251317-harqual-mythology-history.html

I've only just started to report the material so you can read the first few sections to get a feel for it without having to delve completely into it.

I just realized that I had posted this material on my blog, here at EN World, but I've deleted those posts since the blog format doesn't really allow you to read it properly.
 

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