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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gus L" data-source="post: 9427395" data-attributes="member: 7045072">Thief skills have always been a funny fit, but I don't have a problem with OSE's use of the X in 6 method (I first saw this in LotFP which I think popularized it). In general thief skills fall mostly into an issue of how one plays.X in 6 is likely better for lower level play but a few levels in the thief will have maxed these skills out - which may be useful, but does give the feeling of capping the classes advancement at mid-level.  This tends to be an issue with everything LotFP derived, and for most campaigns it's not a problem because I suspect most end well before 5th or 6th level. The real shadow hanging over thief skills is how to interpret them? I think too many have always looked at them as used to do anything and everything related to "thiefy" obstacles. Every wall or cliff MUST be climbed with the skill every trap CAN be discovered and removed with the skill.  I tend to look at things differently and I think it goes well.  Those MUST obstacles ... I don't require thief skills for usually.  Yes, a lock can only be picked with thieves tools and skill (doors and chests have a variety of other ways to break open - that all cost more time and risk noise/damage to the contents), but many things like hiding or climbing are things that every PC can do and thieves just succeed at better. That is if a thief PC tells the referee a plausible way that they are going to hide (say climbing a tree to set an ambush) I will grant them auto succuss (against foes that can be ambushed) and certainly won't roll "hide in shadows" checks. Regular non thieves might have to roll 3D6 vs. Int to hide in this circumstance.  Skills are reserved for two situations A) hard things that most people can't do - like hiding in the shadows of a flickering torch or B) as a sort of saving throw - realizing suddenly that there's a hidden guard post while sneaking down the corridor and successfully sneaking past. In this case I'd ask the thief PC for a stealth check and if they succeeded they would spot the guards before they were spotted and have the option to sneak by. Now the issue with skills that CAN fix everything... They can't.  Find and Remove Traps for example works on small mechanical traps and triggers.  It's a skill that can spot a tripwire or pressure plate, not a solve a complex trap involving rays and magical mirrors. Climb can't climb a wall of glass.  Hide in shadows doesn't work in combat - it's not a videogame skill etc. Traps and puzzles are especially important as solving them using description (clues) and environmental objects or supply items (fictive positioning) is a key part of exploration play and Dungeon Crawling. One wants to avoid magic buttons that simply solve things (except for spells which are specific tools - like levitating up that glass wall - and usually have 1 use).Again the answer is I think, it depends... On your campaign and how you interpret skills/obstacles.  For me, I use a Xd6 vs. target stat system where skills allow the removal on 1 or more D6's and provide the option to use alternate stats.  So "tinkering" lets you pick Int or Dex to fiddle with poison needle launchers and the like.  Of course I also use an OD&D base system so Thieves get 1D6 HP like almost everyone else.  I also give them good ranged Attack Bonuses (slightly less then fighter) and poor melee ones (Clerics get no missile skills and good melee). This I think solves the 1D4 HP, which like variable weapon damage is one of the crimes of Greyhawk.</blockquote>

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