OSE's official alternate Thief skills to good?

[DarkCrisis]

Basically instead of % dice with really low chances to succeed it does a single D6 roll and only succeeds on a 1. At 1st level the Thief can has 4 points to use on Thief skills increase the threshold. So 1 point makes it a win on 1-2 on a D6 etc. Can never go past 1-5. You get 2 more points to spend per level up.

So at first level the Thief could dump all the points into Find/Remove Traps and have a 1-5 on a D6 to succeed.

The Thief in my OSE game a tad more frugal and now at level 3 has finally maxed out the Find/Remove Trap skill, and I'm wondering if Traps will be mostly pointless.

In OSE any trap has a chance to go off on a 1-4 (Or was it 1-2?) on a D6 if stepped on/messed with or whatever. So already a sort of "save roll" if they do trigger it you of course get another saving throw. This of course is if the Thief missed the trap and/or fails to disarm it. So like 2-3 rolls to avoid a trap.

On the flip side, traps are deadly. Poison gas? Dead. Plus Heroes have low HP so even a D6 or D8 of trap damage can be hurtful (thus wasting CLW spells/potions/scrolls).

Does that seem fair? The Thief has a 1 in 6 chance to fail to find a trap now. And even if she does the player hit by the trap still might not activate it and then gets a saving throw if they do.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Hmm. I don't think I'd allow any skill, for anyone, in any game, to reach perfection. That's Greek hero stuff and probably only belongs in a game specifically designed around that kind of play.

In the case of OSE, I'd probably say that the thief can only get to 5/6 in a skill and then has to put their points elsewhere.

 

[TwoSix]

Nah. The player has invested a ton of character resources into (mostly) negating one source of damage. 1 out of 6 traps are still going to slip through, and the damage from those will just make everyone appreciate the thief more. Considering the standard B/X thief is generally considered to be a woefully underpowered class, I can't see letting the thief actually shine in their chosen niche to be a bad thing.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Hmm. I don't think I'd allow any skill, for anyone, in any game, to reach perfection. That's Greek hero stuff and probably only belongs in a game specifically designed around that kind of play.

In the case of OSE, I'd probably say that the thief can only get to 5/6 in a skill and then has to put their points elsewhere.

That’s how it works. maxed out you only fail on 6 on a d6

 

[Voadam]

Thieves are double cursed in B/X~OSE design with first being a d4 HD adventuring class who is really weak in combat, and secondly having really crappy chances of success in what is supposed to be their niche abilities. Being 5/6 successful on a thief skill the player has focused on developing is not overpowering in my opinion.

In AD&D elves in leather can just sneak in natural terrain no roll. Some halflings have a similar ability. Invisibility/knock are no roll. No roll abilities that work are a thing in a lot of old style D&D.

Two of a thieves abilities are things that anybody can do in B/X, finding traps and hearing noises, and a 1st level thief is no better than other other characters to start or with the 1d6 alternate before focusing on developing them. Letting thieves be good at something would be an improvement in the class design from my perspective and not make thieves unbalanced.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Thieves are double cursed in B/X~OSE design with first being a d4 HD adventuring class who is really weak in combat, and secondly having really crappy chances of success in what is supposed to be their niche abilities. Being 5/6 successful on a thief skill the player has focused on developing is not overpowering in my opinion.

In AD&D elves in leather can just sneak in natural terrain no roll. Some halflings have a similar ability. Invisibility/knock are no roll. No roll abilities that work are a thing in a lot of old style D&D.

Two of a thieves abilities are things that anybody can do in B/X, finding traps and hearing noises, and a 1st level thief is no better than other other characters to start or with the 1d6 alternate before focusing on developing them. Letting thieves be good at something would be an improvement in the class design from my perspective and not make thieves unbalanced.

Yeah, it's better to have a Dwarf looking for traps than a Thief at level 1. And if you don't use the alt thief rules the Dwarf is just better for awhile at trap finding.

 

[The Soloist]

When I play BX (OSE) solo, all thief skills (except climb) begin at 50%. They go up 2% per level afterwards, up to a max of 90%. I impose a -5% to 15% penalty if the task is above average difficulty. If feels more satisfying.

My solo thieves can always open any lock. Each attempt takes time. Time adds up after each failed attempt and the probability of getting caught or attracting wandering monsters rises. How much time it takes for each attempt is up to you. Extremely difficult locks could require 2 or even 3 successes to open.

I know it's not very OSR style but failing forward is more stressful and fun.

 

[Reynard]

How do the thief skills interact with the OSR ethos of the player figuring out how to disarm the trap (or where to look for secret doors, or other "skill based play" elements)?

 

[Quickleaf]

I have a slightly unorthodox take... I think the lower chances of success with thief skills is best married with a slight reinterpretation of what those thief skills MEAN.

OSE and Dolmenwood carry on mostly the traditional interpretations – you declare "I'm sneaking up on them" and then you roll Move Silently, you declare "I'm searching for traps" and then roll, etc – with the exception that OSE redefines Climb Walls to Climb Sheer Surfaces.

It seems like a subtle change, but Sheer is beyond the realm of most other folks' ability. It's not just a "generic climb skill." It's "holy crap they did an unassisted ascent of a 5.13 climbing route without handholds and a nasty overhanging ledge!"

The more you make the thief skills EXTRAORDINARY, the more the higher chance of initial failure makes sense, imo.

For example, Hide in Shadows is typically – you declare, if you succeed and stay motionless, you ambush an enemy walking along. INSTEAD, I like to run it as: Hide in Shadows is an extra chance for the thief to avoid being detected even if their party does not have Surprise, thus allowing them to gain surprise (just them). It's like a reaction/shröedinger effect, where "ok, an encounter is happening, no one is surprised...buuut WAIT! was the thief lurking in the shadows all along and gets the drop on the monsters?"

What's nice about this is that it minimizes the amount of declaring "OK, I'm sneaking now", or and the corollary issue "oh yeah, we're sneaking too." Instead it's easier to assume the party is generally trying to be sneaky (when it's reasonable to do so), and the Surprise roll is the appropriate mechanic for resolving that – remember if you Surprise a party you can opt to withdraw or move around them without being noticed (depending on the circumstances).

And this gets into how Move Silently can be adjudicated. You've Surprised monsters, and you want to get around them but there isn't a clear way? Thief can roll Move Silently!

It's a very different interpretation... but IME it plays much nicer with the lower chance of success that thieves have with their skills in OSR.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Does that seem fair?

Yeah, the rules are fine. Ultimately, there will never be a implementation of the TSR thief that 100% of people will like. If you and your players like the OSE d6 thief, use it. You won't ruin your game.