OSE's official alternate Thief skills to good?

[Quickleaf]

How do the thief skills interact with the OSR ethos of the player figuring out how to disarm the trap (or where to look for secret doors, or other "skill based play" elements)?

As traditionally played, Find/Remove Traps is the thief player's last resort when creative thinking fails. Traditionally, the skill doesn't interact with the player figuring things out. It's your backup plan.

To build on my "how I reinterpret OSR thief skills" post above, Find/Remove Traps is best reserved as a reaction kind of mechanic that embraces it's a lucky/skillful passive sort of last resort to fall back on...or applying in specific circumstances where the danger is already upon you. OR it's best used to answer specific questions a thief player has about a trap (so more like "Analyze" than "Find/Disarm").

Dolmenwood (a refinement of OSE, which is a distillation of B/X) has an interesting approach where Gavin Norman uses greater specificity to limit the scope of Disarm Mechanism as well as clarify the risk involved.
It's not a perfect solution, but what it does is to divide traps into two sorts: (A) the clockwork type bypassable by the thief with a roll, and (B) everything else that you've got to use your 'noggin to figure out.

A successful check allows a thief to disarm complex, clockwork-like trap mechanisms hidden in a lock, lid, door handle, or similar. Thieves’ tools are required for disarming mechanism traps.
Time: Each attempt to disarm a trap requires 1 Turn.
Retrying: The thief may retry failed attempts as often as they wish, each attempt requiring an additional 1 Turn.
Natural 1: On a roll of natural 1, the thief must Save Versus Doom or accidentally spring the trap.

 

[DarkCrisis]

How do the thief skills interact with the OSR ethos of the player figuring out how to disarm the trap (or where to look for secret doors, or other "skill based play" elements)?

So far she hasn't had to disarm a trap. The 3 times one had popped up she failed to find it or search for it.

I would assume she would attempt to disarm instead of bypass.

 

[The Soloist]

I have a slightly unorthodox take... I think the lower chances of success with thief skills is best married with a slight reinterpretation of what those thief skills MEAN.

OSE and Dolmenwood carry on mostly the traditional interpretations – you declare "I'm sneaking up on them" and then you roll Move Silently, you declare "I'm searching for traps" and then roll, etc – with the exception that OSE redefines Climb Walls to Climb Sheer Surfaces.

It seems like a subtle change, but Sheer is beyond the realm of most other folks' ability. It's not just a "generic climb skill." It's "holy crap they did an unassisted ascent of a 5.13 climbing route without handholds and a nasty overhanging ledge!"

OD&D uses Near Sheer Surfaces. That is where Gaven took it from. D&D Holmes uses 'climb sheer surfaces' (Gygax supervision) and Moldvay Basic changed it to [edit] Climb Steep Surfaces under Gygax's supervision.

To me climb 'Near sheer surfaces' is the usual High Gygaxian uselessly ornate language when Clim Walls could have been used, which Gygax used in AD&D. It doesn't imply any thief superpower beyond the regular chances. When you read the Thief section in OD&D there is no guidance on thief skills.

But I'm aware some old-school players have been saying what you are saying. I've read it many times.

 

[Voadam]

How do the thief skills interact with the OSR ethos of the player figuring out how to disarm the trap (or where to look for secret doors, or other "skill based play" elements)?

Generally as an orthogonal option of engaging with the game.

The B/X procedural rollplay sequence makes it a bit of a resource management minigame using time as a resource to be managed. Searching a defined area (for a trap or a secret door) takes a turn, torches are measured in turns, and wandering monsters are checked based on number of turns gone by. You engage a known chance roll and expend time to try and open things up or reduce risk.

Player skill is different and things anybody can do. Once you find the trap you can decide what to do about it using player skill and manipulating the fiction etc. It takes however long it takes, not game defined sequences. People can leave the trapped chest alone and move on, figure out how to open it from a distance or while not standing in front of the trap firing mechanism, based on the description guess which feature is a safety to open it without setting off the trap, or whatever.

The thief can do all that same as anyone else but the thief can also go back into the dungeon crawl procedural minigame and roll for their character ability and bypass the player skill options or use it as a backup when they can't player skill disarming the trap.

 

[Weiley31]

Wait: the Thief skill points go 1-6, 2-6, 3-6, 4-6,5-6, 2d6 when you use that variant and apply skill points to those skills, right?

 

[The Soloist]

The thief can do all that same as anyone else but the thief can also go back into the dungeon crawl procedural minigame and roll for their character ability and bypass the player skill options or use it as a backup when they can't player skill disarming the trap.

That is how I've always viewed it.

Expert Set (Cook & Marsh) also has an Optional rule on page X51, which stipulates the DM can ask for a 'roll under' saving throw versus any ability. This introduced minigames for any class. We used that rule often when 'Player Skill' failed and the group was stuck.

During the early 80s, Saves vs Ability (X51), Variable weapon damage (B27) and Individual Initiative (B23-24) optional rules were very popular in my area.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Wait: the Thief skill points go 1-6, 2-6, 3-6, 4-6,5-6, 2d6 when you use that variant and apply skill points to those skills, right?

Every skill starts as a one on a 1d6. The points you add the bigger the threshold to succeed. so 1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5 (maxed out).

Exp: Thief has put 3 points into Find Traps. A threshold of 1-4. Rolls a 5 on the check and fails.

 

[Gus L]

Thief skills have always been a funny fit, but I don't have a problem with OSE's use of the X in 6 method (I first saw this in LotFP which I think popularized it).

In general thief skills fall mostly into an issue of how one plays.

X in 6 is likely better for lower level play but a few levels in the thief will have maxed these skills out - which may be useful, but does give the feeling of capping the classes advancement at mid-level. This tends to be an issue with everything LotFP derived, and for most campaigns it's not a problem because I suspect most end well before 5th or 6th level.

The real shadow hanging over thief skills is how to interpret them? I think too many have always looked at them as used to do anything and everything related to "thiefy" obstacles. Every wall or cliff MUST be climbed with the skill every trap CAN be discovered and removed with the skill. I tend to look at things differently and I think it goes well.

Those MUST obstacles ... I don't require thief skills for usually. Yes, a lock can only be picked with thieves tools and skill (doors and chests have a variety of other ways to break open - that all cost more time and risk noise/damage to the contents), but many things like hiding or climbing are things that every PC can do and thieves just succeed at better. That is if a thief PC tells the referee a plausible way that they are going to hide (say climbing a tree to set an ambush) I will grant them auto succuss (against foes that can be ambushed) and certainly won't roll "hide in shadows" checks. Regular non thieves might have to roll 3D6 vs. Int to hide in this circumstance. Skills are reserved for two situations A) hard things that most people can't do - like hiding in the shadows of a flickering torch or B) as a sort of saving throw - realizing suddenly that there's a hidden guard post while sneaking down the corridor and successfully sneaking past. In this case I'd ask the thief PC for a stealth check and if they succeeded they would spot the guards before they were spotted and have the option to sneak by.

Now the issue with skills that CAN fix everything... They can't. Find and Remove Traps for example works on small mechanical traps and triggers. It's a skill that can spot a tripwire or pressure plate, not a solve a complex trap involving rays and magical mirrors. Climb can't climb a wall of glass. Hide in shadows doesn't work in combat - it's not a videogame skill etc. Traps and puzzles are especially important as solving them using description (clues) and environmental objects or supply items (fictive positioning) is a key part of exploration play and Dungeon Crawling. One wants to avoid magic buttons that simply solve things (except for spells which are specific tools - like levitating up that glass wall - and usually have 1 use).

Again the answer is I think, it depends... On your campaign and how you interpret skills/obstacles. For me, I use a Xd6 vs. target stat system where skills allow the removal on 1 or more D6's and provide the option to use alternate stats. So "tinkering" lets you pick Int or Dex to fiddle with poison needle launchers and the like. Of course I also use an OD&D base system so Thieves get 1D6 HP like almost everyone else. I also give them good ranged Attack Bonuses (slightly less then fighter) and poor melee ones (Clerics get no missile skills and good melee). This I think solves the 1D4 HP, which like variable weapon damage is one of the crimes of Greyhawk.

 

[Theory of Games]

A L1 Thief can disarm traps 83% of attempts? That's broken IMO.

 

[Gus L]

A L1 Thief can disarm traps 83% of attempts? That's broken IMO.

Why?
I'm honestly curious why how you feel this would be broken in play - no shade or criticism intended. I believe that it would be bad in your game - I just want to know how you are playing that makes it a problem?

For me, as noted above, the way I tend to handle simple, mostly mechanical traps that the skill would work on (needles, spear traps, covered pits etc.) and figured most people did, is as at least partially diegetic/within the fiction. I.E. if the players say they are looking for tripwires and spend extra time (and so random encounter checks) doing so they can usually spot simple traps and escape, safely trigger or disarm them 100% of the time.

The highly specialized thief described here (remember this PC can't do other cool thief things like sneakily scout, effectively backstab, sleight of hand, acrobatic wall climbing, or lock picking) - an AC 7 to 4 rear rank combatant with a lower THAC0 who likely dies from any hit. A glass cannon for removing poison needles on chests they still have to smash open...

Again I am very curious if it still sounds awful to you with those caveats, and how you run B/X or OSE that makes the 5 in 6 trap obsessive a bad time?