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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mannahnin" data-source="post: 9427547" data-attributes="member: 7026594">In early D&D you MOSTLY got XP for treasure but also did get XP for killing things.In 1974 OD&D monsters gave 100xp per HD (with adjustments up or down based on relative level of the character and monster), but Gary rapidly decided that was too generous and adjusted it way down starting in Supplement I: Greyhawk in 1975, and monsters continued to be the secondary xp source (roughly 20%, maybe, depending on the version) through every version until 2nd ed in 1989, which made treasure for XP an optional rule and set a guideline of 50% of available XP being from monsters and 50% from quest goals/objectives."Climb nearly sheer surfaces" was the original wording in 1975 Greyhawk when the class and skill were introduced.Well, there was also a version before that, in <a href="https://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2012/08/gygaxs-thief-addition-1974.html" target="_blank">The Great Plains Games Players newsletter article "The Thief Addition"</a>, in 1974, where it was called "Climb almost sheer surfaces rapidly, up or down".1977 Holmes basic calls it "climb sheer surfaces".In the 1978 AD&D Players Handbook we first see it called "Climb Walls", and it's notably the exception.  AD&D 1E notoriously bones the Thief at every turn, through (aside from giving them a d6 HD), so this is par for the course.1981 Basic goes back to calling it "climb sheer surfaces" in the table on page B8 but "climb steep surfaces" in the class description on B10.  Expert goes with "climb sheer surfaces" in the table on X6, so overall I'd say that OSE is being consistent with the predominant wording in B/X.This kind of interpretation goes back at least to Jason "Philotomy Jurament" Cone's seminal <a href="https://www.grey-elf.com/philotomy.pdf" target="_blank">Philotomy's Musings</a> on his now defunct website, going back to 2007.  Big influence in the OSR.I think it's important to note also that the Thief's ability to Remove Traps was originally (in Greyhawk and in the original The Thief Addition article) specific to small device traps.  "Remove small trap devices (such as poisoned needles)" is the GH wording.  "Removal of small trap devices (such as poisoned needles)" in the TTA article.  Holmes Basic uses consistent wording as well, "remove small traps such as poisoned needles".  Moldvay uses identical wording to Holmes.The AD&D PH is more long winded, but again is talking about small mechanical devices.  "Finding/removing traps pertains to relatively small mechanical devices such as poisoned needles, spring blades, and the like.  Finding is accomplished by inspection, and they are nullified by mechanical removal or by being rendered harmless."There is no "find traps" Thief ability prior to 1978, just "remove". The 1974 set vol 1 notes that Dwarves "note slanting passages, traps, shifting walls and new construction in underground settings", and gives some general guidelines for searching for things in Vol 3 but while that bit gives chances for finding secret doors and for listening for noises on a d6 roll, no such mechanics are described for finding traps (only a random chance of springing them if you blunder across them).  With this void, the implication is that traps are either undetectable or (more likely) that you spot them by describing narratively how you search.Holmes retains the Dwarves finding stuff language but adds a mechanic to the end "about one-third the time", giving them a 1-2 on a d6 matching their chance to hear noises.AD&D in the 1978 PH first introduces the concept of FINDING traps being part of the Thief's skills.  IMO that was a mistake, and a real design error, multiplying the already low odds by implying that Thieves be forced to make two long-odds rolls instead of just one.Interestingly the class description in Moldvay basic exactly matches the Holmes wording and omits "find", though the Thieves' Abilities table on B8 sadly titles the column "Find or Remove Traps".  The skill description on the same page reads "Find or Remove Traps is a double ability.  The thief has the listed chance of finding a trap (if there is one) and the same chance (if the trap is found) of removing it.  Either attempt may only be tried once per trap."Again, IMO, retaining and enshrining this tiny percentage to "find" traps was one of Moldvay's rare editorial slip-ups.Moldvay does distinguish between the small mechanical traps Thieves find and disarm (referred to broadly as "Treasure Traps" on B52) and larger "Room Traps" (B52 again), such as pit traps, which anyone can search for and find on a 1 in 6 (B22), or Dwarves 2 in 6 (B22 and B9).Overall I think the textual evidence supports a premise that the Remove Traps ability was always meant to apply only to small mechanisms which the DM and players are less likely to be able to handle with narrative description, not necessarily being familiar with the details of how such mechanical devices would operate.  Larger traps like pit traps and crossbows and so forth, "Room Traps" as Moldvay labeled them, it seems were left out of the scope of the Thief ability.  Which implies that they are either intended to be uncounterable (unlikely) or dealt with narratively, through any player describing to the DM what their character does in-fiction to counter it.Yes, this is a smart approach to Thief adjudication and it's something the written texts for every version of 1970s and 1980s D&D and AD&D are conspicuously and sadly missing, though it's sort of implied.As a quick note, with the ability saves Marsh and Cook were reiterating something Moldvay included in 1981 Basic on B60, under the "There's always a chance" heading in the Dungeon Mastering as a Fine Art section of advice.As far as I've been able to determine this is the first time in any core D&D book that the concept of rolling under an ability score as a generalized mechanic was introduced.  There are at least one or two instances of it appearing as a bespoke mechanic for a specific spell, though, like in the Dig spell in the AD&D PH in 1978.</blockquote>

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