[OT, grammar and punctuation] Use of commas in US and British style?

[Morrus]

This bothers me a lot as well (notice I spelled it a lot not alot which is another thing that drives me nuts). I even went to the trouble of looking it up on the internet. The few sites I found on the subject suggested that saying "I could care less" was a sarcastic phrase; I didn't go for that though. I don't believe any of the people I have met that have used phrase "I could care less" ever intended any sarcasm.

Exactly. The phrase "I couldn't care less" is a well-known and commonly used phrase. When people say "'I could care less' is sarcastic", they're just making the same mistake; what they mean to say is "'I couldn't care less' is sarcastic."

Not that it is, particularly. It's just so silly that people actually try and justify/explain "I could care less" with a ludicrous excuse like "sarcasm" because that's all they can think of that could possibly make it make sense (not that it does). If they were using the correct phrase, they would realise that it requires no explanation - because it makes sense already!

I'd also like someone to explain the inherent sacrasm in "I could care less". I mean, I'm a sarcastic guy. I know sarcasm - and that ain't it by any definition of the word.

 

[Silverthrone]

Leave the coma in the hospital where it belongs.

And how can we leave out

Rogue vs. Rouge?

One is a PC class in D&D. The other is a type of facial makeup.

A smartass comment. How amusing.

 

[Zander]

When I travel to Quebec I will stop and visit all of my friends: Allan, Cindy, Frank and Martha, Paul, Rick and Sarah.

In the example pairing is used. John, Cindy, Frank, and Jan are clearly individuals. Frank and Martha are a couple and will both be met in one stop. But in this case the nature of Rick and Sarah's relationship is ubiquitous. The reader is unsure of whether they are paired or not.

Actually, I disagree with you here. If Rick and Sarah, as a couple, were treated as one entity then the sentence would be:
"When I travel to Quebec I will stop and visit all of my friends: Allan, Cindy, Frank and Martha, Paul and Rick and Sarah"

Now, this doesn't read so well, but 'Rick and Sarah' is the equivalent of saying 'Rick', since it is being used as a single entity.

Duncan

I would even go so far as to use ampersands to pair elements. So if Rick and Sarah are together, the sentence becomes: "When I travel to Quebec I will stop and visit all of my friends: Allan, Cindy, Frank & Martha, Paul and Rick & Sarah". If not, it would be: "When I travel to Quebec I will stop and visit all of my friends: Allan, Cindy, Frank & Martha, Paul, Rick and Sarah."

 

[vox]

"I could care less" is a sarcastic phrase, along the lines of, "As if I could care less!"

"Irregardless" is most certainly a word, although it's nonstandard English. The "Ir-" prefix is an intensifier. Irregardless of whether it appears in your dictionary (go check: if it's a good dictionary, it'll have it), you'll know what I mean when I say it. That makes it a word, whether or not your English teacher thinks it is.

And I learned that this comma was called the "Harvard comma," although it's also apparently called the "Oxford Comma." Here's what the alt-usage-english faq has to say on the subject:



Daniel
Descriptive, rather than prescriptive, grammarian
hi wolfspider!

Thank You! Also, it may be helpful to think of the phrase as, "I could care less," with an implicit, "but not much." I don't believe this is some sort of bastardization of "I couldn't care less"--it's just a sarcastic statement that isn't always delivered or received correctly.

--vox

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Some of the comments on this thread have pointed out the difference between hearing words and seeing them written down...if you've never seen voila written down you may believe that it is spelt wa la. Hum.

But the thing that really gets up my nose is people in London that just can't speak properly. It's not a blooming accent, it's Bad English. Worst examples are "I think there is somethin<b>k</b> outside" and "I want <b>a</b>animal for my pet". Grrr.

And I'm normally such a mild mannered person...

 

[Greybar]

One thing to remember is that there is no gun pointed at your head to force you to use a problematic structure. Consider the previous scenario:

"I would like to thank my parents, God and Ayn Rand."

This is a good example of ambiguity. However, the author chose to make that ambiguity, perhaps for humor. The author could easily have chose to be unambiguous:

"I would like to thank God, Ayn Rand and my parents."

This would use the same comma convention, but no longer has the problem. Don't get sidetracked on the grammar. The job of the author is to get the meaning across to the reader clearly. Using the generally agreed upon grammar is the best way to be clear to the maximum number to readers. If your audience is divided, and will suffer either way, use another mechanism if you can.

In summary: don't blame the grammar, blame the author. [grin]

John

 

[tarchon]

SALT Talks.

T can also be for Treaty, rather than Talks.
However, I think one might consider the fact that acronyms very commonly occur with the expanded form of the last term may indicate that the usage functions as an appositive clarifying the context.
Compare:
"Hey, did your hear about the start?" (ambiguous, since you can't capitalize an utterance)
vs.
"Hey, did you hear about the START treaty?"
Common "errors" typically become common because they fill some need which may not be obvious upon cursory examination.

 

[Zarrock God of Evil]

According to Michael Swan's "Practical English Usage" the rules are not set in stone. It only notes that "In British English, a comma is not usually used with and between and the last two items unless these are long". And example of a sentence where the two last items are long (and where the comma should always be used) is:

"I spent yesterday playing cricket, listening to jazz records, and talking about the meaning of life"

-Zarrock

 

[Ranes]

RangerWickett, I'd like to offer my two cents, even though I'm a Brit. I'm a writer and editor, too. I would tend not to put a comma before the last article in a list or indeed before any of the conjunctions and, or and but, if the clause that follows isn't a subordinate conjunction. There are those whose professionalism I respect who would use a comma, though their arguments for doing so are not necessarily that persuasive. I make exceptions to my own rules, of course. (I had a good example to illustrate my point but rereading the thread more closely, I see Greybar beat me to it.)

My beef is that commas that precede and, but and or are redundant, unless the sentence is particularly long or complex in structure. If that is the case, I consider rephrasing.

Anyway, as the thread is covering a few other peculiarities and peeves, here are mine. (By the way, I don't get het up about ordinary mortals making these kinds of trivial errors but they crop up more and more, in all kinds of media, doing no one any favours in the process.)

Apostrophe deployment in capitalised abbreviations: NPC's, to me, is possessive singular, NPCs' is possessive plural and NPCs is just plural. Simple.

Using the word "less" when "fewer" would be correct. I have less money but you've had fewer beers.

Seeing spaces before a question mark or exclamation mark (I prefer to refer to the latter as a screamer or a bang) annoys me. I know such stretched punctuation is usually confined to marketing materials but it still irks me.

Singular verb conjugation when plural is required. There is a load. There are loads. There's loads I hate. (sic)

Unless these things are done by writers who are attempting naturalistic dialogue, for example, they bug me a treat.

And finally...

People in online games typing, "Err," when they mean, "Er." In doing so, they err. Okay, that one is a pet peeve that reminds me I should get out more.

On that note...

 

[barsoomcore]

But in this case the nature of Rick and Sarah's relationship is ubiquitous.

Um, "ubiquitous"? (Note the punctuation OUTSIDE the quote)

You mean the nature of the relationship was everywhere at once?

Or perhaps you mean "unclear".

Sorry, it made me laugh...