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[OT] How much of history do we really know?

mistergone

First Post
Well we do know a few things. Like how all the Bigfoots killed all the dinosaurs, except the Nessies, which they made a deal with and let live in a lake in Scotland. But only because the Jersey Devil was busy fighting the Mothman in New England and he couldn't stop the peace treaty from being signed. Jersey Devil HATES him some fishy dinosaurs!

Me, I'm waiting for Thor to find his bowling ball and pick up the spare he left hanging at Stonehenge. 10th frame buddy! We got people waiting for that lane!

Yeah, I love history. It me learned am good.
 

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Darklone

Registered User
I know quite several people who would claim that everything in the bible is the truth.

Now there are many historians who more than doubt the "facts" about King David written there...

Which one do you believe ;)?
 

MerakSpielman

First Post
Darklone said:
I know quite several people who would claim that everything in the bible is the truth.

Now there are many historians who more than doubt the "facts" about King David written there...

Which one do you believe ;)?
If anything can get this thread shut down, discussing this can...

(Merak sits back with a Coke and some popcorn to watch the fireworks)
 

The_Universe

First Post
Allow me to say that I agree completely with many of the posters here, who have stated that we know little of the "whys" that are attached to the "whats" in History. But history is not all "whys". In many ways, the sequence of events of our past are just as important as why someone (or ones) initiated that chain of events.

I'd argue that we have a pretty good idea as to the sequence of our past, as a species, but that just like today, we have some difficulty gettig into the minds of others, and sometimes, even our own minds.

I can look back, now, and tell you all the reasons that I decided to break it off with a girl at the end of my sophomore year of college, but in no wat would I presume to tell you that what I think the reasons were, at this very moment, were in fact the reasons I was using, then. Furthermore, even if it was a historically interesting event (which it is not), I could at best GUESS as to what she was thinking. I might be able to make educated, logical guesses--but they would still be guesses. We're not mind readers as a species, and so that kind of certainty for WHY is denied to us forever.

However, we can be certain that the event did happen because of the physical, demonstrable consequences. Argue all you want, but I am no longer dating that girl. This leads to the way we guess at "why" using the consequences of an event as a guide.

If the girl I broke up with say, was not a gamer, and a bad kisser, and the woman I 'm engaged to marry IS both a gamer, and the queen of tonsil hockey, one might surmise that gaming and kissing were reasons for the breakup in the past. You can never be CERTAIN that that was the reason, but you have some decent evidence that points you in that direction. This then becomes as close to historical fact on the "why" end as it is possible to get. (as I recall, those were, in fact, the reasons. She probably has a different story... :D )

And that's the way History works. I think it's ridiculous to say that we know "jack" when in fact we know as much as we can be reasonably sure about. The beauty of human curiosity is that we keep looking for certainty--though it is unattainable. Yet, with every addition the the list of demonstrable facts, we're closer to learning about why by examining what.

We know rome rose to rule the known world, because it left demonstrable footprints on the world. We KNOW it fell, because it sure as heck doesn't rule the mediterranean, now! For the same reasons, we can be justifiably skeptical (but hopeful, as I suspect many gamers are) that there was historical King Arthur. For all of his literary impact, there's very little "fact" of his life. There was probably a warlord whose stories grew into the literary author, but for right now, we accept that we do not know, and work with the evidence that presents itself.

What I really think the human species has a problem with is the scale of time, not its sequence. We labored for years under the assumption that the world was merely thousands of years old, when as we now believe, it is a great deal older than that. Probably billions of years old. There seems to be a HUGE academic disagreement about the age of the Pyramids and the Sphinx...but we know that they were there before time X, and had an effect on religion Y. No one will tell you that there were no monument-building egyptian dynasties. After all, they left their mark for us to see, and study.

Lastly, to assume that we CAN'T achieve reasonable amounts of certainty about the past means you CAN'T accept the validity of ANYONE'S perception of reality. You only remember that the sky is blue, when I see it as a turqoise, and Bob thinks its green!

History (and reality) really isn't written by the winners, its written by the majority--and just like democracy, we just have to assume that most of the time, most people are right.

(sorry for the long post)
 

Wombat

First Post
Okay, I feel a need to chime in on two sides: trained historian and storyteller.

What "really" happened in history is a damn loaded question to begin with. Do you "really" know what happened to your friends yesterday? How do you know? Obviously anything they told you left out parts of their thoughts, actions, etc. There is an automatic filter.

Be that as may be, you can still have a good notion as to what, in the main, happened.

My own field of study was 12th century England. Do I know what "really" happened, say, June 13, 1175 in London near a specific priories? No. Do I have a general sense of social structures, politics, and standards of living for the era? Yes. Do I fully understand the medieval English mindset? I could never claim this. I worked through a combination of documents, both translated and not, archaeological evidence, and previous historians interpretations, sifting carefully to gain some small measure of expertise regarding the concept of oath-breaking (my MA topic). I can say that I never got to "know" a specific individual, can never really know what it is like to live in that world as I do not eat the same foods under the same conditions, wear the same clothes made in the same manner, and am not surrounded by the same crowds with their interests of the day.

But to say I know nothing about that era is farcical.

There are two general schools of thought working here -- The Past Is Gone and The Past Is A Foreign Country.

Let us consider the first proposition. If The Past Is Gone, never to be recovered or understood, then our own lives must start fresh each day. What happened before we were born, even if by a day, can never be understood. If we are to accept this mode, then we cannot hold the past responsible for anything. Indeed, the only matters that may be truly "known" are matters that we go through, that we experience. Do I "know" what 9/11/2001 was like? From my own perspective of waking up and seeing the news, yes; from the perspective of the people in the planes, in the Twin Towers, no. This, however, becomes a case of reductio ad absurdum -- following this proposition to its (il)logical conclusion, all we really "know" is what is happening at a given moment to ourselves, thus our own personal past is dead and we can never even truly know what is happening to others around us.

The second proposition, The Past Is A Foreign Country, is a useful model up to a point. In this we assume that what happened before us takes place under conditions that are more or less foreign to us, with different values, judgements, tastes, and vocabulary. This means that when you approach historical information you need to assume that the values of another time and place will not exactly mirror your own. Just as you prepare to visit a foreign country by finding out about exchange rates, places of interest, and the like, so, too, will you find out about the past -- not knowing every detail the way a native does, and probably concentrating too heavily on certain "shiny spots", but still getting some feel and appreciation for a different place and time. In the end, however, you are merely a tourist, not a participant, and you will bring the interests and interpretations of your own world and time into the mix, a filter between you and "what really happened".

But there is a third path that is vastly important and commonly overlooked -- The Past As We Assume It Happened. This is actually the single most vital aspect of history, far more important than any other, yet is poo-pooed and ignored by most established historians. We "know" things about the past -- we have been handed stories, shown pictures, etc. This is the history we work with on a day-to-day basis. More than half of it is hookum, but it affects how we percieve the world around us.

A fine example of this is the Battle of the Alamo. Most people in the United States "know" that Davey Crockett, Jim Bowie, and the gang fought to the last man against the Mexican army. In doing so they provided an example of courage and honour that has rung through U.S. history, a story that is repeated and many attempt to emulate in their own periods of need. However, there is a school of thought, based on documentary evidence, that suggests that the defenders of the Alamo actually surrendered and were shot by a firing squad. This is an argument taking place between academics at the moment in an attempt to understand what "really" happened. But to most Americans the story remains. Since the story remains, we act upon it as if it were real, whether it proves to be or not.

What we think happened, ultimately, is much more important that what actually happened. However, when we as individuals learn more, we put aside previous beliefs and pick up new ones. This gives us a new basis to work from.

What "really" happened in history?

It all depends on what you mean by the question.
 

MerakSpielman

First Post
Good post Wombat.

Wombat said:
What "really" happened in history?

It all depends on what you mean by the question.
I think what most people mean by that question is what would be observable if we could build a magical scrying mirror or time machine and actually observe what happened. This hypothetically observable truth is what "really" happened. Since these things do not exist, it is reduced to a question more suitible for philosophers than historians.

It could ALL be a big lie. We could have been placed here by divinity/aliens/whatever of incredible power only 50 years ago, with a pre-fabricated world and memories that would be indistinguishable from the real things. Philisophically, this can be speculated, but it is entirely irrelivent because there is no way to prove it one way or the other without our time machine or scrying mirror. So, quite bluntly, it doesn't matter. We have to assume that what we can observe is real, and go from there. And if that leaves more questions about the past than answers, well, so be it. There's not really a lot you can do about it.

I just re-read my post and am not quite sure there's a real point to it, but I'll post it anyway. :)
 

For ancient history, I seem to recall that "history," as we see it nowadays (historians writing books from a supposedly objective viewpoint) didn't exist until something like the last two hundred years or so.

Historians in the ancient up to modern periods wrote histories not to tell you what happened, but to tell you what the rulers want you to believe happened.
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
Wombat said:
What we think happened, ultimately, is much more important that what actually happened. However, when we as individuals learn more, we put aside previous beliefs and pick up new ones. This gives us a new basis to work from.

Great point; perception is (almost) everything. How I perceive an event affects the choices I make know, and the assumptions I make.

The reason I know there were very few women warriors, or that millions of people were murdered in World War II, is from the data I have. The thing is, with a certain amount of knowledge, there comes a certain amount of assuredness, and too much assurance leads to arrogance. Where a historian must take note, just like the scientist, is that theories are MEANT to be broken. Most scientists I have ever met accept this as the most fundamental law; theories are made to be changed or even discarded. If someone proves Einstein wrong with repeatable experimental data tomorrow, then most scientists would get over their shock shortly, and take the new info into account.

Many historians I studied under (for the brief time I was a history major) would have been flabbergasted had you introduced evidence that an entire branch of history is wrong. History, because of the cultural and emotional ties bound within it, is much harder to throw out or amend than Chemical or Physical Theory. Humans need to constantly remind themselves that THEORIES are made to be broken, and prevent theory from becoming fact.
 

jester47

First Post
To chime in with Wombat (I have almost the same credintials, except I studied the Edwards a century later.) I would like to point out that in historical study, documentation about a people is worth somthing but not what many people think it is worth. That is to study a people, person or event beyond what others have accounted about he/she/them/it you have to look at the records left by that person or people. So we want to study the romans. We really can't be sure of how an event unfolded, but we can get a good idea depending on archeological evidence, and written record. But History is really not about names and dates. Thats record keeping. (and why so many highshool coaches seem to be attracted to teaching history) True historical understanding somes when you look at what a people did. So to understand our romans, we don't look at what others wrote about the romans, we look at what the romans wrote about others. In this we can get a good idea about what romans or (in the case of Julius Caesar) a particular roman felt was important. So then through studying many documents written by romans, we get a good idea of how the romans who wrote thought and what they thought was important.

so we know the nazis were totalitarian, led by a man some of them thought was wonderful and who others secretly questioned the sanity of. We know that they wanted land. We know they did not like the jews and certain other peoples (I think the estimated number of non-jews killed in the holocaust was somthing like 12 million. Not sure though. However I was surprised to find that it was more than 6.) We know that not all Germans were nazis. We know the political/economic conditions that were prevalant when the Nazi's came to power, we know how they came to power. We know what they said, and we know what they did, and we know where these diverge.

So, yes we do know jack about what happened. Can we state what happened to every individual with 99% accuracy? No. We are even lucky to get 50% on major figures. Can we state what really happened on a larger scale with 99% accuracy? Again no. But here we can get the general idea. I would put it best at being 60% sure about what happened. This number drops as time goes on and the record decays.

Aaron.
 

jester47

First Post
MerakSpielman said:
Good post Wombat.

I think what most people mean by that question is what would be observable if we could build a magical scrying mirror or time machine and actually observe what happened. This hypothetically observable truth is what "really" happened. Since these things do not exist, it is reduced to a question more suitible for philosophers than historians.

It could ALL be a big lie. We could have been placed here by divinity/aliens/whatever of incredible power only 50 years ago, with a pre-fabricated world and memories that would be indistinguishable from the real things. Philisophically, this can be speculated, but it is entirely irrelivent because there is no way to prove it one way or the other without our time machine or scrying mirror. So, quite bluntly, it doesn't matter. We have to assume that what we can observe is real, and go from there. And if that leaves more questions about the past than answers, well, so be it. There's not really a lot you can do about it.

I just re-read my post and am not quite sure there's a real point to it, but I'll post it anyway. :)


Whatisthematrix.

The matrix has you.

Aaron.
 

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