[OT] Saving the planet is quiet work.

I have had my say. My opinion has been stated. It is crystal clear, what I said.

I will leave it at that, and not post further to this thread.
One post is quite enough to get my point across, and I will not argue or even discuss this further.

Edena_of_Neith
 

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med stud said:
Yeah, I think 100 % of the Americans on the board are alive just because of that man, and more then half of the Europeans. Strange in a way that a man who saved us from an apocalypse havent got any real attention :-/

If you think this only happened once during the Cold War, you've got some reading to do.

The America's early warning radars looked for things coming over the horizon at us. The first day it was turned on, it detected incoming bogies... fighters were vectored, bombers were scrambled, the President was called... No Soviet bombers. No Soviet missiles. After a few tense hours the defenses stood down.

The next day, a few minutes later than the previous day's alarm, the system went off again... fighters were vectored, bombers were scrambled, the President was called... No Soviet bombers, no Soviet missiles.

The early warning system was detecting the rise of the moon.

PS
 

I think the debate side of this topic is more centered on the first man Monte mentions in his rave. I don't think anyone could question the veracity of the heroism in averting nuclear holocaust. However, the continued ability of science to support an exponential growth in human population can be questioned.


Thaumaturge.
 


kenjib said:


Come on, now. The same "villains" also work very hard to prevent Montsanto's utterly dispicable and potentially catastrophic terminator seeds from being used as well as supporting sustainable growth rather than exponential expansion that may or may not continue to be supportable through the fairy tale of unlimited progress in science. Of course saving a billion lives is an amazing and wonderful thing, but the situation is far more complex than that simple article presents it. We will only know the full outcome of these things in another hundred years, but hopefully people will look toward more long term solutions to population management. Extreme high yield crops are great, but by themselves they are not a long term solution. For all we know this could just be paving the way for tens of billions of deaths 50 years from now.

Kenjib (and Numion of the Rolling Eyes :) ),

While it may have sounded like I was lauding the use of genetically engineered wheat to subsist a billion people in an area of the world where poverty is only one of many concerns, I was not. I'm certainly an advocate of slowing the birth rates in countries with 40%+ infant death rates and a skyrocketing AIDS problem; feeding those that do exist is only a salve, yet compassionate. The same could go for AIDS awareness programs and treatments. Uncontrolled population growth is at the heart of why these third world countries are unable to take advantage of modern technologies to complete the transition into fully functional industrial societies. If population levels continue to rise (which is a matter for debate due to the high number of deaths from AIDS and related factors in many of these countries), things will only get worse as the environment is depleted in those countries.

India, for instance, will be one of the hardest hit in the next 50 years. Their population continues to grow without the spectre of disease, and their food production isn't keeping pace while their aquifers drain away. Pakistan will most likely fare even worse, as its women will be retarded in their education and opportunities to a much greater degree than in the relatively progressive Indian society.

So of course, it is a tough issue, and one that is not likely to go away any time soon. The largest factor is education, and perhaps the acceptance by certain cultures that with modern luxuries come modern ways of living. Cultures and religions that continue to deny women basic freedoms will forever be plagued by high birth rates (EDIT: this sounded like a bit of a non-sequitur, but the correlation is high), and modern science will continue to help them, for lack of a better term, *@!$ themselves to death.
 
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Numion said:
"When that prize was awarded in 1970, it was estimated that Norman Borlaug had saved the lives of over 1 billion people."

Humans are taxing this planets capacity to its limits. Some people think that the world could do without those extra 1 billion. Another mans hero is another.. how was it?

I'm not sure those one billion people he saved would agree with you here.

However, if I've misinterpreted your post, feel free to correct me.
 

Numion said:
"When that prize was awarded in 1970, it was estimated that Norman Borlaug had saved the lives of over 1 billion people."

Humans are taxing this planets capacity to its limits. Some people think that the world could do without those extra 1 billion. Another mans hero is another.. how was it?

Come on. That's just crazy... you have to ask yourself why you feel the way you do about that.

I mean, a hundred years ago, "the world" couldn't support the five or so billion people who live on it now. Now it can. What does that mean?
 

Disclaimer:
I do not intend any of my statements in this post to be accusatory or insulting, I understand where everyone is coming from, I'm just explaining why I disagree. This subject is very important to me. I don't believe that anyone here is malicious in any way.



It seems to me historical arguments of world overpopulation are greatly exaggerated. Certainly, there are areas that have populations that are too dense to support the humans that occupy them but cries of overpopulation have largely been a smokescreeen for racial discrimination . Who's to judge which lives should fall victim to "natural selection" in the form of plague and famine? Are western lives more valuable than third-world lives? We're humans, and it's dangerous to imply that some people don't have a right to their lives because of a geographic accident of birth.

Overpopulation is and must be a relative term. Relative to space? There is enough habitable land mass to give every human being on the planet at least 5.2 acres (and probably more like 6.2 acres).

The habitable land mass of the world is 57,115,500 sq.miles. The current population is over 6 billion. Assume that by the time you read this post it's 7 billion. ;) There are 640 acres in a square
mile. This gives a total of 36,553,920,000 acres of habitable land mass. This gives each human being on the planet 5.2 acres, assuming a world population of 7 billion. Realistically, not everyone will live alone, so assume three people to a home. That's 15.6 acres per family. 1/4 of a square mile per family. Most city dwellers wouldn't know what to do with that much space.

You could easily argue that this allotment of space is entirely unrealistic, for both political and practical reasons. politically, you could never get the interests and individuals who own most of the world's land to give them up for the good of mankind. They have too much to lose. This would be a valid point, but then the issue comes down to greed, which in my mind is the primary reason for the issues commonly attribute to overpopulation.

Where would the infrastructure to sustain society go? The hospitals, schools, and civic buildings? Include space-saving homes such as high-rises, and you are left with even more space. It would take planning on a scale the world has never known, but I truly believe that the world's population could comfortably live in a much smaller area. As it is we only occupy less than 1% of the available non-icy land. Better buildings, better settlements. We'd then have much more land than we will need for generations to come.

The space argument is out the window. Let's dismantle the argument that overpopulation is relative to resources . Food production has outstripped population growth by an average of 1% since 1940. Add in new developments in biotech such as golden rice, and we're more than fine.

Here's a counterpoint: http://www.reprohealth.org/reprohealthDB/doc/demo.pdf

This a pro-population control document, but even they admit that the rate of population growth tapered off sometime around 1965. look at the table called "World population growth by decade"

Don't get me wrong. Fewer births per year with continued increases in productivity would be beneficial to all of us, and would raise the average standard of living, but sustainability is for me and many others a non-issue. We will continue to meet the needs of our population, as long as we don't let greed and politics get in the way.

The inequity is there, the few take from the many. That, and never overpopulation has been our problem all along.

Here's another link on Eugenics for those who are interested: http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/eugenics/
 
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LostSoul said:


Come on. That's just crazy... you have to ask yourself why you feel the way you do about that.

I don't "feel" about this thing. I just thought about it rationally. My feelings would of course tell me that more humans is better, like everyone else.

I mean, a hundred years ago, "the world" couldn't support the five or so billion people who live on it now. Now it can. What does that mean?

That the world can support infinite number of humans? Surely not. I don't know how many people the earth can support, but I know that the number isn't infinite. I'm just saying that in this case, like many others, ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It would be much better to now really curb the population growth than to notice in N years that "oops, ecosystem failed at 40 billion." (or whatever the population limit will be).

And what if the population limit was as high as 100 billion? Surely humans would live better with an earth population of 7 billion than 100 billion?
 

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