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Message: <blockquote data-quote="eyebeams" data-source="post: 4577671" data-attributes="member: 9225">For the first poster: Get HARP. It's and excellent, moderately complex (but less so than Rolemaster -- it;s kind of like RM without all of the things that make you want to punch somebody in the face when you try to make a character) FRPG. It's at <a href="http://www.harphq.com/" target="_blank">HARP</a>. Yes, maintaining a profitable game line is a real pain. When I was consulting for a client a couple of years ago I explained it this way:1) You need room to expand vertically (within the scope of long term play);2) and you need room to expand horizontally (within any stage of play)The classic vertical expansions in RPGs are D&D's box sets, each of which aded horizontal elements too, but in a way that was staged to allow gradual introduction (with some exceptions -- skills and weapon mastery). A more recent example is White Wolf's Scion, which was split into three hardbacks by "level:" specific stages of character power.Horizontal expansion has been the hardback A/D&D tradition.  You get new widgets for your character, new items, new things to fight. That kind of thing. But the books allow full advancement to the end of a single campaign, and lay out options at all stages.In my opinion, staying horizontal has been a problem since 2e. All those campaign settings in 2e are examples of horizontal expansion. 3e didn't do much better, since it expected everybody else to support it for free by using a very stupid business model (at least in the long term) instead of capturing a niche with a d20 variant that would not support 3e much.What people forget is that the red box they loved was a product meant for vertical expansion. That's why it was tiny. Mentzer D&D with every box is pretty much as complex as AD&D, but you didn't have to swallow it all in one bite.I enjoy 4e -- play it once a week. But it should have been 96-104 pages, covered 5 levels and skipped half the rules -- and it shouldn't have been the "Basic Game" that feels like a ripoff once you buy the core books. It should have had pregens for every class and an adventure inside -- maybe a chunk of a ongoing campaign over several books. 4e suffers from being overly referential. To navigate my objectives and know what's going on at different career stages I find myself referring back to the boxed sets as a "map." This insight isn't available to newer gamers.</blockquote>

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