Outfitting a Monster: CR, HD, or ECL?

[occam]

There's a contradiction between the 3.5e Monster Manual and the DMG regarding wealth and classed monsters.

That's for sure. I brought this up on another thread a while ago. To recap:

From the DMG, p. 51:

Monsters with Classes
Many monsters advance by adding class levels (see the Monster Manual). To determine treasure for monsters with class levels, first give them equipment. Use Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value (page 127) and use just their class levels to determine the value of their equipment. Then generate their treasure according to their monster entry and the rules under Building a Treasure, below. This may generate more items than the monster can use, and that's fine (see Custom Treasures, below).

From the Monster Manual, p. 291:

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level
If you choose to equip a monster with gear, use its ECL as its character level for purposes of determining how much equipment it can purchase. Generally, only monsters with an Advancement entry of "By character class" receive NPC gear; other creatures adding character levels should be treated as monsters of the appropriate CR and assigned treasure, not equipment.

Taking some examples from the Monster Manual. I interpret the rules above like this:

ogre barbarian: ogre (4 HD, CR 3, +2 LA) barbarian 4
DMG: class level 4 (3300 gp) + CR 3 (900 gp) = 4200 gp
MM: ECL 10 NPC (16,000 gp) = 16,000 gp
straight CR: CR 7 NPC (2600 gp) = 2600 gp

harpy archer: harpy (7 HD, CR 4, +3 LA) fighter 7
DMG: class level 7 (7200 gp) + CR 4 (1200 gp) = 8400 gp
MM: ECL 17 NPC (100,000 gp) = 100,000 gp
straight CR: CR 11 NPC (21,000 gp) = 21,000 gp

troll hunter: troll (6 HD, CR 5, +5 LA) ranger 6
DMG: class level 6 (5600 gp) + CR 5 (1600 gp) = 7200 gp
MM: ECL 17 NPC (100,000 gp) = 100,000 gp
straight CR: CR 11 NPC (21,000 gp) = 21,000 gp

These are huge differences. In particular, the rule stated for classed monsters in the MM results in outrageously high-value gear. I think I've decided to assign NPC gear based on straight CR, which is predictable in that it's neither too high nor too low compared to the PCs they'll be facing.

 

[SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS]

These are huge differences. In particular, the rule stated for classed monsters in the MM results in outrageously high-value gear. I think I've decided to assign NPC gear based on straight CR, which is predictable in that it's neither too high nor too low compared to the PCs they'll be facing.

And WoTC eventualy agreed with us, in the page 6 of the monster manual 4 is written:

A creature that has been advanced by class levels, has treasure equal to an NPC of its Challenge Rating, not its effective class level

 

[hong]

That leads to weirdness though... A standard hill giant (CR 7) has a greatclub and hide armour, or about 20 gp worth. But the same giant with 1 level of fighter (CR 8) has 10000 gp worth of stuff?

 

[SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS]

That leads to weirdness though... A standard hill giant (CR 7) has a greatclub and hide armour, or about 20 gp worth. But the same giant with 1 level of fighter (CR 8) has 10000 gp worth of stuff?

A standard hill giant have an average of 2600 gp of treasure, standard for a CR 7 creature. A Hill giant fighter 1 is a elite NPC and should be equiped as one. And it isn't 10000gp it is 9400gp, acording to the DMG table.

 

[airwalkrr]

I voted CR since that is the best way to handle it usually. However, since you want this to be a major villain whom I presume will be recurring, you might consider basing his wealth on his ECL. It wouldn't be a huge jump and it might be worth increasing his CR by 1, but it would be appropriate if you want this fellow to be better equipped than your average rakshasa (assuming such a thing exists).

 

[MerricB]

Hello.

I'm making a re-occurring NPC villain (a raksasha). I'm pretty much taking the raksasha from the monster's manual, swapping a few spells known, re-rolling its hp, and giving it treasure to use. However, I'm not sure how I should be doing the latter.

The rule is to equip it according to its CR.

So, if it has a CR of 12, equip it as a 12th-level NPC.

This means that the treasure the PCs get is of a level according to its threat.

Cheers!

 

[robberbaron]

I generally use the CR but sometimes add in an extra campaign-related bonus.
I would, of course, include the cost of any traps used in the defence of said monsters pad.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey MerricB dude!

The rule is to equip it according to its CR.

So, if it has a CR of 12, equip it as a 12th-level NPC.

This means that the treasure the PCs get is of a level according to its threat.

But if the monster is initially CR 12 and you then add 12th-level equipment, is it still CR 12?

 

[Remathilis]

Hey MerricB dude!



But if the monster is initially CR 12 and you then add 12th-level equipment, is it still CR 12?

I thought on that as well. I assume (since he doesn't have any "treasure" in the MM sense of the word) he's not overly powerful compared to the "off the rack" raksasha. In reality, his saves are one better, his DCs to resist spells and SLAs are one better, his AC is 2 better, and he can flee rather quickly. Oh, he has a +1 weapon for purposes of keeping up the facade. I don't consider that a real big power boost.