Outfitting a Monster: CR, HD, or ECL?

[freyar]

Hmmm, I suppose it depends on the role you want for the NPC. If you want the PCs to get the treasure and defeat the rakshasa quickly, I'd use the CR and the usual treasure by CR/EL guidelines (incidentally, I think MIC assigns treasure to each monster by CR rather than to an entire group by EL, which is a change from the DMG if I am reading the instructions correctly). However, if they are recurring, I would give them treasure according to their ECL using the NPC wealth by level guidelines. That will put them more on par with the PCs. Hey, perhaps it will work out about the same either method! If the NPC guidelines give more wealth, though, I'd suggest generating some non-perishable treasure (by which I mean things like weapons and permanent magic items rather than scrolls or things the rakshasa might use) and then filling up the rest with potions, scrolls, gp, etc, that the rakshasa might spend over the course of the adventure. Then arrange it so they use things up before they are defeated.

Interesting question. Has anyone compared the treasure by EL averages to the average NPC wealth by level? How do these compare? And isn't the PC wealth by level higher than NPC wealth by level?

 

[Garnfellow]

If you are going by RAW, it would be neither, since it goes by EL.

Not quite.

There's a contradiction between the 3.5e Monster Manual and the DMG regarding wealth and classed monsters.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I outfit all monsters and npcs on judgement and whim alone. If I think this Potter kid needs a cloak of invisibility, I give it to him. Rules be damned.

 

[el-remmen]

I outfit all monsters and npcs on judgement and ehim alone. If I think this Potter kid needs a cloak of invisibility, I give it to him. Rules be damned.

ehim?

But yeah, basically what I was gonna say.

Give him what you think he needs to have.

 

[Shroomy]

Not quite.

There's a contradiction between the 3.5e Monster Manual and the DMG regarding wealth and classed monsters.

True, but you are only supposed to use the ECL if the monster has class levels and its advancement is by "character class." The Rakshasa does advance by character class, however, the OP did not indicate that his rakshasa had class levels, so by default, if I was following the RAW I would go by the EL. Of course, I would strip away the mook's treasure and give it to the rakshasa in any case...

Interesting question. Has anyone compared the treasure by EL averages to the average NPC wealth by level? How do these compare? And isn't the PC wealth by level higher than NPC wealth by level?

I don't have the books in front of me, so I can't give you numbers, but treasure by EL averages is much less than the NPC wealth by level, which is also much less than PC wealthy by level.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

ehim?

But yeah, basically what I was gonna say.

Give him what you think he needs to have.

Yeah, you know, EHIM *clears throat* And BAM! the hobgoblin has a +4 defender (It only works for those of evil alignment, of course).

 

[Remathilis]

Bit more info.

The NPC is a re-occurring villain for a (currently) 4th level party. Right now, he can't be taken, but when the team is sufficient level, he's toast. (His master, on the other hand, is another story...)

He has no class levels except the 7 "pseudo" level of sorcerer. If later I need him strong, I'll add some sorc levels on, but for now he's more than a challenge.

There is a chart in DMG 3.5 that has wealth by encounter, PC wealth, and NPC wealth (I think). I should look into that.

Right now, he has 10th level NPC treasure. I'm still debating on giving him 14th level NPC treasure. Keep it going.

 

[frankthedm]

Not quite.

There's a contradiction between the 3.5e Monster Manual and the DMG regarding wealth and classed monsters.

Yep.

CR determines treasure, Class levels determines gear IIRC.

 

[Shroomy]

Yep.

CR determines treasure, Class levels determines gear IIRC.

I don't see the contradiction between the DMG and the MM; the problem is that the DMG treasure guidelines are incomplete:

An opponent whose HD is derived solely from class levels should be equipped with gear according to the NPC Wealth Table.

An opponent whose HD is derived solely from racial/monster HD should be equipped with treasure according to the Treasure Table (and their monster entry).

An opponent whose HD is derived from racial HD and class levels, should be equipped with gear according to their ECL if their advancement entry indicates that they advance by class level only. Otherwise, they should be equiped with gear commesurate with their class level, as well as treasure commesurate to their CR/EL according to the Treasure Table (and their monster entry).

I think the system works pretty well except for creatures that have their gear determined by their ECL, which, like a lot of ECL-based mechanics, is kind of wonky especially when you get away from low HD, low LA creatures. I can see a 1st level aranea sorcerer being equipped as an 8th level NPC (3 racial HD, +4 LA, +1 class level -- still too high for my taste since the CR will be 5), but a 1st level rakshasa sorcerer being equipped as a 16th level NPC (8 racial HD, +7 LA, +1 class level), I don't know about that....

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Generally speaking, the LA/ECL mechanic is just used for calculations involving PCs. I don't think factoring in the ECL is appropriate for determining an NPC's loot. The CR calculation is never used for PCs, only NPCs, but is it right for determining NPC loot?

I'd suggest doing it as the DMG p. 51 says: add the base monster treasure and the gear generated by the class levels (not the CR, not the ECL, not the HD, the "class levels"). Is there anything in the MM that explicitly contradicts this? If you want, give him crafting feats so he can make his own magic items using the gold and gems in his hoard.

Gear is a fairly minor issue for a rakshasa. He's a manipulator, a behind-the-scenes schemer, and his inherent abilities allow him to excel in that role. If forced into combat, he doesn't need magic weapons, armor, or save-boosting items (his SR is so good). Still, even a relatively inexpensive Staff of Fire will increase his power level quite a bit over the MM rakshasa.

Gear is a major issue for melee monsters. A Hill Giant Ftr1 (Class level 1, CR 8, HD 13, ECL 17) is already quite a bit stronger than a basic Hill Giant due to the class level and elite array. Without even postulating ANY treasure, he's easily 1 CR above what he was before. 900 GP gives him Banded Mail armor (500 gp) and a Masterwork Greatsword (400 gp). So I think that in general the DMG guidelines work well.