"Outsider" templates - where did the madness start?

[Quasqueton]

Something that has bugged me about the outsider-type naming convention for a long time came up in my group's last game session.

One of the newer Players thought a half-fiend was lesser than a fiendish creature. That makes sense in thought, but isn't true in the game.


Fiend - a demon or devil.
- Many different varieties.
- resistant to acid, cold, and fire.
- damage reduction (most often) overcome by good.
- personal weapons treated as evil.
- variable abilities and powers -- but only 1 demon and 0 devils has darkness at all.


Fiendish - actually from a lower plane. Associated with, but not actually related to fiends.
- resistant to cold and fire.
- damage reduction overcome by magic.
- personal weapons not anything special.
- no ability changes or any real "powers".


Half-fiend - direct child of a fiend.
- resistant to acid, cold, electricity, and fire.
- damage reduction overcome by magic.
- personal weapons treated as magic.
- ability changes including +4 Dex, +4 Int, and +2 Cha.
- many powers starting with darkness 3/day.


Planetouched - has a fiend somewhere in the family tree. So, in effect, a decendent of a half-fiend. Yes?
- resistant to cold, electricity, and fire.
- no damage reduction.
- personal weapons not anything special.
- ability changes of +2 Dex, +2 Int, and -2 Cha.
- one power - darkness 1/day.


So:
- Either all half-fiends and planetouched creatures are decended from babau demons, or they spontaneously develop the power of darkness.
- Direct decendents of fiends get a boost to Charisma, but their decendents not only loose that boost, they drop below the average.
- Decendents (all the way down to planetouched) somehow pick up a resistance to electricity.
- Associates and direct decendents of actual demons/devils loose their vulnerability to good, and pick up a vulerability to magic instead.

There is no real game-mechanic relationship between the above "related" creatures.


And, in general, the names for these templates are just out of whack.

If a fiend is the actual demon/devil, maybe the fiendish template should be called "planetouched". After all, fiendish creatures are just creatures from the lower planes -- "touched" by the evil planes.

The half-fiend template should be called "fiendish". This template is the only one that even *looks* like an actual fiend -- they are essentially fiend *ish*.

The planetouched template should be called "half-fiend". This template actually shows a little in common (though weaker) with the current half-fiend template (which should be called "fiendish").


This confusing and counter-intuitive convention is also seen in the various "celestial" and "elemental" templates. It makes no sense. How far back in D&D history does this convention go? I don't remember such creatures in AD&D1. Was it too ingrained in AD&D2 nomenclature to change it for D&D3.X?

Quasqueton

 

[Dogbrain]

The whole "fiend" thing is a 3d edition invention, so the messed up nomenclature would come from that, too. 2d edition called them Slurpies and Poofies or some other "inoffensive" name, due to the bizarre delusion that no longer calling them "Demons" and "Devils" would mean that D&D would no longer be in immanent danger of being banned, worldwide by the Vast and All-Powerful Freaky Fundie* Conspiracy. Oddly enough, it was never in any such danger, in the first place, and the use of the Slurpie/Poofie terminology was just another sign of how totally out of touch TSR was during the 2d edition days.

 

[Voadam]

I thought fiend was a 2e term for any evil extraplanar creature from the lower planes, including demons, devils and the NE things.

I agree that 3e screwed up the terminology in using fiendish as the term for the associated creatures that are not actually fiends but magical beasts and whatnot. Fiendish sounds like they are actually fiends which they are not. Fiend infused would be a better term.

 

[Joshua Randall]

The nomenclature is completely screwed up.

I use the word fiend-touched in my game to mean what core D&D means by fiendish. I kept the term half-fiend, even though it's not really an accurate term. Instead of planetouched I say tiefling (originally a Planescape term, I believe). Confused yet?

 

[Voadam]

In 1e there were demons and devils and other things (demodands, daemons, hordelings, etc.)

In 2e they had original made up replacement names tanari, baatezu, yugoloths, Ghereleths, etc.

In 3e they have both (tanari are a subgroup of demons with similar characteristics) and they are all grouped gnereally as the fiends.

 

[Kax Tuglebend]

The nomenclature is completely screwed up.

I use the word fiend-touched in my game to mean what core D&D means by fiendish. I kept the term half-fiend, even though it's not really an accurate term. Instead of planetouched I say tiefling (originally a Planescape term, I believe). Confused yet?

Planetouched was a Planescape term (fluff not crunch) for anyone with any native planar beastie in their family tree (Tieflings, Aasimar, Genasi)

i'm actually rather bothered that Tieflings and Aasimar (and Genasi in FR) have generic abilities rather than some sort of pick and mix thing (i would never consider playing Planescape without something like the Planescape Skills & Powers article from Dragon <236?>)

 

[frankthedm]

Feindish and half-fiend are generic templates that add something 'wrong' to the chosen creature to make a quick and easy to use lower planer grunt or lost soul. No specific heratige is infered for the half fiend and no specific plane of origin is infered for half fiend from its abilities. The monsters of fearun has a half fiend of specified origin [drow/glabrazu Dregoloth [sp?] and a DM should feel free to alter the spell like abilities and special qualities for demonic family lines that are being given a family tree. A player who wishes for different abilities for his character should feel free to discuss the matter with the games dungeon master as suggested in the PHB.

 

[Basin?]

I've thought about this a lot as well, here's the way I've rationalized it in my game:

A half-fiend is the result of a union between a powerful demon or devil, not just a lowly osyluth or something. A fiendish creature on the other hand is a normal creature native to one of the infernal planes. Its not too hard to see how the child of a balor and a human would have more fiendish blood and powers than a griffon native to the nine hells. A planetouched character is a descendant of the aforementioned half-fiend/half-human. The result of mating between a fiendish creature (such as the aforementioned griffon) and a regular creature of the same type would produce an essentially normal creature with perhaps a few cosmetic "evil looking" details. I think this makes sense and doesn't involve changing any template names or meanings.