D&D 5E (2014) Overpowered, Underpowered or Just Right

[Tony Vargas]

The fun thing is that the biggest problem with multiclassing is that it's too easy to accidentally make a underperforming character. Unlike 3.x or pathfinder, 5e multiclassing is not the "route to power".

Arguably, the "route to power" in 3.5 is the single-classed caster and/or full-casting PrC. There's no PrCs in 5e, and full caster level isn't quite as vital with spell DCs scaling with character level and spells scaling with slots (so an MC'd caster/caster isn't as screwed as in 3.x).
Of course, the "route to power" in 5e is simply gaming the DM. It's evocative of the classic game, that way, and if you're going to embrace being all Empowered, you get to put up with that kinda thing.

Two main tenants not to lag behind for multiclass are:

• Don't miss ASIs.
• Don't miss out on your 5th level (or 11th level) power bump for long.

• Sure, while caster levels (sorta) stack, now, fixing a major issue with the original 3.0 MCing, 5e MCing puts a similar onus on ASIs (in contrast to 3.x, when feats & stat bumps were simply based on character level) and Extra Attack (I presume, the main 5th & 11th level bumps you're thinking about).
  
  

  Most classes have a serious bump at 5th and a smaller one at 11th.

  The fighter, certainly. While getting 3rd level spells and 6th level spells, respectively, is certainly a bump, it's not like 4th and 5th level spells are anything to sneeze at, though. But, yes, being conscious of the significant breakpoints of the classes you're combining is a good idea, otherwise you may pull in a class to get something and wind up getting it very late, or even missing out on it altogether.
  
  

  Now, fighter is one of the more cherry-pick-able classes (cleric 1 being another one)

  In the sense that they gain abilities at low level that can synergize pretty nicely with other class abilities, sure.
  
  

  But Rogue 3/Fighter 2 is weaker then Rogue 5 or Fighter 5.

  I suppose it could depend on the exact build and the vagaries of the specific campaign, but neither should be feeling to OP compared to a 5th level full caster, anyway. Nothing much to worry about, there.
  
  

  It's not badly off, still within the curve of classes.

  The balance of 5e is quite loose, that way. At any given level, in any given circumstance, a given MC combo, like a give class, might be wildly (in)effective. It's mostly on the DM to manage that variation to maximize the fun of his campaign.
  
  

  I never made any claim that performing poorly would lead to a TPK but...
  "par" is what a general replacement character of the same general niche would bring to the table.
  A character well below par will not be able to hold up their part of the party as well as a generic replacement character of the same niche.

  Under-performing, even in that sense is a concern for the DM, in that he can find ways to keep such a PC involved and contributing, based on whatever his combination of abilities does bring to the party(npi). It's not like 3.5, when such considerations could render an otherwise cool concept non-viable.
  
  

  1. Delaying ASIs a long time (3 levels or more) can make a character less effective.

  3 levels is OK as an arbitrary example, depends on how long the campaign goes. The extreme case would be the multi-multi-classed PC who takes 2 or 3 levels of many classes and /never/ gets an ASI. Kinda like the 3.x MC goof who ended up with +0 in bad save.
  
  

  There is a power bump for the classes at 5th (and a lesser one at 11th) and delaying getting there can also can make a character less effective.

  Delaying, again, depends on the campaign. One objective guide, though, is the exp it takes to level vs the expected exp of challenges, it indicates that characters generally level very fast the first few levels, then slow down through about 11th. So that first bump normally comes very quickly, if you delay it only a few levels, that may actually be a lot of play time. OTOH, advancement speeds up a little after 11th, so getting a kicker at 13th instead may not be that bad. OTOOH, if the campaign wraps at 15th, getting your 11th level bump at 16th is not getting it, at all.

 

[hastur_nz]

Everyone, thank you for all the responses, as it really does help. I anticipate I will be having more rules interplay questions as the game unfolds. We have been putting off 5E for so long because the Pathfinder game was still going strong, but since that ended, I am really digging the simpler mechanics.

I would highly recommend you start your 5e game at 1st level. From personal experience, as player and DM, starting a 5e campaign at first level works really well, even for 'veteran' players. Even if you and/or the players think that's going to be sooo boring, because you've played D&D for sooo long, or whatever. After a campaign or two, you may (or may not) decide you all prefer to start at level 3, or thereabouts.

But if you're all new to the 5e rules, it's totally best to ease yourselves into it, and 1st level characters are just interesting enough, and simple enough, and well balanced enough, for you all to have fun as you learn the new rules. There's actually a lot of stuff to select at first level, a lot of 'character defining' stuff. Also, if you use standard XP, you'll actually get 3rd level in a couple of sessions anyway.

p.s. this also helps sort out the "will I multi-class, and how" questions players might have. Start somewhere, see how it goes; you may just change your mind. For example, personally I play an Eldritch Knight, dual-wielder, single-classed until level 7; at first level (human variant), I used a Feat to pick up some Warlock stuff, it was only around level 6 I wanted to branch my character sideways a bit so multiclassed. In the game I DM, a player has flip-flopped between Rogue and Warlock from level 2, with a plan that was more of the 'long-term' type i.e. didn't all fit together until level 6, but to be honest as an observer from level 2 or 3 on that PC feels like a warlock that mostly likes to use knives up close, it's just another PC, not OP, not UP.

 

[EvanNave55]

Of course, at the lower levels, the Green-Flame Blade cantrip and the sneak attack seem to be at odds with each other, such that for the cantrip to work, a creature needs to be within 5 feet of the enemy you are hitting, whereas for sneak attack to work (from the Swashbuckler archetype), there must be no other creature within 5 feet of the Rogue. This assumes I understand the sneak attack rules.

It looks like others have addressed all your other concerns but no one has mentioned this so I figured I should bring it up just in case to prevent any potential misunderstandings. The swashbuckler's changes to sneak attack only add additional ways to the options a rogue has for gaining sneak attack it doesn't replace them.

This means that a swashbuckler is able to sneak attack nearly at will since they can sneak attack any time they:

• Have advantage
• Have an ally adjacent to the enemy
• OR
• Are fighting the enemy one on one

 

[Flamestrike]

Hello Everyone. Long time lurker on these boards. Have a 5E situation that I would like opinions on. We just finished up a long Pathfinder campaign and we are starting 5E for the first time. All players have been playing D&D since the 80s, so while we are familiar with RPGs and the rules, this is our first foray into 5E.

One of the players has a nice character concept for the new 5E game. He is a High Elf and currently has 2 levels of Rogue. At level 3 he will dip into fighter for a level, then back to Rogue for one more level, then the rest in Fighter and he will take the Eldrich Knight path. He is a DEX based character and is using two short swords, so he will take the two weapon fighting style when he gets his first Fighter level. Then when he goes back to Rogue for a level he wants to take the Swashbuckler archetype from the Sword Coast book. He also wants to use the Green-Flame Blade cantrip as his High Elf cantrip.

Given the sneak attack rules in the PHB and the additional opportunities for sneak attack from the Swashbuckler archetype, plus the two weapon fighting and DEX based character along with the Green Flame Blade cantrip, does anyone think this is overpowered, underpowered or just right? Everything he wants to do seems RAW, but I have no experience with this combo and not sure if others think the additions from the Sword Coast Adventures Guide are overpowered or not. Seems he can spam the Green-Flame Blade cantrip over and over as it states that the melee attack is part of the action used to cast the spell.

Of course, at the lower levels, the Green-Flame Blade cantrip and the sneak attack seem to be at odds with each other, such that for the cantrip to work, a creature needs to be within 5 feet of the enemy you are hitting, whereas for sneak attack to work (from the Swashbuckler archetype), there must be no other creature within 5 feet of the Rogue. This assumes I understand the sneak attack rules.

Thank you for any opinions and feel free to tell me I am concerned about something that really doesn't justify my concern.

Critically underpowered I would think. He's making several redundant choices.

You cant TWF with Greenflame blade. Casting GFB requires using the 'Cast a spell' action, meaning you cant attack with your off hand weapon as a bonus action after you cast it.

TWF is traditionally regarded as weak, although on the Swashbuckler archetype its actually pretty optimal (although it still competes with his bonus action for the Dash action, and occasionaly for the Disengage action).

You can sneak attack with GFB, but you only get one sneak attack per Turn. So spamming GFB grants him 1 chance to sneak attack.

Also; he's taking very few levels in Swashbuckler meaning his sneak attack damage is subpar. You really only want 5 levels of Fighter, and 15 in Rogue (hitting Fighter 5/ Rogue 5 at 10th level for uncanny dodge, extra attack, action surge, and 3d6 sneak attack)

A more optimal choice would be to select Battlemaster instead of Eldritch Knight. He can then use the riposte manouver to gain an extra sneak attack (as a reaction) on the enemies turn, plus feinting attack to remove disadvantage (ensuring he always has sneak attack up his sleeve) and precise attack (ensuring he lands those sneak attack hits).

All three manouvers are perfect in fluff and flavor for a Swashbuckler as well.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I agree with the poster above.
I think he would be fine if he took a different cantrip and just focus on TWF. Or not be a high elf if it was only because ge wanted to exploit a hole that didn't exist.

Since he wanted to take the TWF feat anyway I would recommend taking it at level 1 as variant human.
That way he can easily keep up with single classed characters at level 3 and 5.
At 3 he has 2 attacks at d8+3 and 1d6 sneak attack second wind and medium armor. At the cost of not having the swashbuckler advantages and 1d6 sneak attack.
Action surge at level 5 and swahbuckler fighting will make him quite formidable in one on one. Extra attack at level 8 is a bit late. But with battlemaster at 6 and ASI at 7 he should be ok. At level 9 or 10 I would take another level of rogue so 2 more ASI. One would be medium armor master the other one dex to 20.

 

[auburn2]

I probably would not allow sneak attack damage with green flame blade either. The way I look at GFB is that it is a spell, a cantrip that you use your weapon to effect.